RTCM Simulcast and 9.6 MHz Phase locking

after reading on gps locked clock and pll found this.

http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=107&products_id=234

Low-jitter GPS-locked precision frequency reference

450 Hz to 800 MHz output

this could be usefull to steer about any radio model no?

Is it worth the time and money to try with this device?

···

2017-05-12 12:03 GMT-04:00 Tim Sawyer tisawyer@gmail.com:

Political Correctness Gone Mad. :smile:

Actually it’s Programmable Clock Generator Module.

K

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 8:38 PM Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com wrote:

I know there is always the one that ask the obvious question but, what is a pcgm?

Le lun. 8 mai 2017 à 23:10, Tim Sawyer tisawyer@gmail.com a écrit :

The PCGM were noisy. I know of a case where a ham using one was shut down by the site owner. Seems the PCGM was emitting a interfering signal on high band, around 158 Mhz.


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Tim


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On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Bryan Fields bryan@bryanfields.net wrote:

I’ve been following this with some interest. One of the fundamental issues with the PCGM was the master clock going to the radio was unable to be modulated. This made low frequency signals (PL) distort, and digital PL was even worse.

Typically most radios use two point modulation, with modulation on the reference oscillator. When you add an external reference you loose this.

Some base stations are designed to do two point modulation even on an external clock, the Quantar for example. This station will even phase lock it’s PL and DPL generation if provided a 1 PPS in addition to a clock.

If we could inject modulation into the clock generator simulcast performance would vastly improve. I’d be interested to see your design to see if this would be a possibility.

Thoughts?

Bryan Fields

M: +1-727-409-1194

On May 8, 2017, at 14:15, Reid Brandon rfpowerguy@yahoo.com wrote:

Hi Joe,

I got a page with a pic of a man that rotated around saying DOWNLOAD NOT FOUND.

Try again!?

Tks Reid

On Sunday, May 7, 2017 12:25 PM, Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com wrote:

I am very interrested in all this project. My email is VE2PF @ VE2MRC dot com!

what radio did you used for the project?

Thanks for sharing!

Pierre

VE2PF

2017-05-07 12:32 GMT-04:00 Kevin Custer kuggie@kuggie.com:

I wanted to throw this email out to the group for all those who want to simulcast with the RTCM. For those who don’t know, in order to make the RTCM suitable for simulcast you must have a more accurate 9.6 MHz clock for the RTCM in order to ensure the audio sounds acceptable in the overlap areas. I did this a few months ago using 9.6 MHz OCXO’s. This worked reasonably well. Not as well as I would have liked but the system was very usable, but of course I wanted it to be better. Since the PCGM (Programmable Clock Generation Module) is no longer available, I decided to roll my own as some say.

I created a PLL circuit that can accept a 10 MHz, 1 MHz or 100 KHz reference input and produce a phase locked 9.6 MHz out for the RTCM. I have been testing this over the past few days and it has made an great improvement in the audio quality in the overlap. The quality of the audio in the overlap areas sounds very, very good, it’s very similar to what I expect to hear in commercial simulcast systems. My circuit is heavily based off of an old Motorola MSF5000 HSO PLL circuit that I was able to adapt and modify to my needs. There are other uses for this circuit that make it attractive for simulcasting but I wont get into them here. I am will to share my schematic and bill of materials (digikey) with anyone. Please send me an email and I will be willing to share all of my information on the project.
Joe,

Why not consider do it as an article for Repeater Builder?

Thanks,

Kevin

On 5/7/2017 3:13 AM, Joe Moskalski wrote:


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Tim

I purchased one of those units about 2 months ago and they work extremely well. I have used it to allow the use of Motorola Maxtrac’s and GM300’s for simulcast operation by externally injecting a 14.4 MHz reference into the radio from this unit.

if you want a ready-made solution that will give you GPS locked accuracy and is programmable to just about any frequency you would need than this is it.

···

On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 5:00 PM, Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com wrote:

after reading on gps locked clock and pll found this.

http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=107&products_id=234

Low-jitter GPS-locked precision frequency reference

450 Hz to 800 MHz output

this could be usefull to steer about any radio model no?

Is it worth the time and money to try with this device?

Le ven. 12 mai 2017 à 17:39, Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com a écrit :

A big thanks Tim. I feel less uneducated :wink: Will have to get a look at this…


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2017-05-12 12:03 GMT-04:00 Tim Sawyer tisawyer@gmail.com:

Political Correctness Gone Mad. :smile:

Actually it’s Programmable Clock Generator Module.

K

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 8:38 PM Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com wrote:

I know there is always the one that ask the obvious question but, what is a pcgm?

Le lun. 8 mai 2017 à 23:10, Tim Sawyer tisawyer@gmail.com a écrit :

The PCGM were noisy. I know of a case where a ham using one was shut down by the site owner. Seems the PCGM was emitting a interfering signal on high band, around 158 Mhz.


App_rpt-users mailing list

App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlink.org

http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users

To unsubscribe from this list please visit http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users and scroll down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email address and press the “Unsubscribe or edit options button”

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Tim


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On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Bryan Fields bryan@bryanfields.net wrote:

I’ve been following this with some interest. One of the fundamental issues with the PCGM was the master clock going to the radio was unable to be modulated. This made low frequency signals (PL) distort, and digital PL was even worse.

Typically most radios use two point modulation, with modulation on the reference oscillator. When you add an external reference you loose this.

Some base stations are designed to do two point modulation even on an external clock, the Quantar for example. This station will even phase lock it’s PL and DPL generation if provided a 1 PPS in addition to a clock.

If we could inject modulation into the clock generator simulcast performance would vastly improve. I’d be interested to see your design to see if this would be a possibility.

Thoughts?

Bryan Fields

M: +1-727-409-1194

On May 8, 2017, at 14:15, Reid Brandon rfpowerguy@yahoo.com wrote:

Hi Joe,

I got a page with a pic of a man that rotated around saying DOWNLOAD NOT FOUND.

Try again!?

Tks Reid

On Sunday, May 7, 2017 12:25 PM, Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com wrote:

I am very interrested in all this project. My email is VE2PF @ VE2MRC dot com!

what radio did you used for the project?

Thanks for sharing!

Pierre

VE2PF

2017-05-07 12:32 GMT-04:00 Kevin Custer kuggie@kuggie.com:

I wanted to throw this email out to the group for all those who want to simulcast with the RTCM. For those who don’t know, in order to make the RTCM suitable for simulcast you must have a more accurate 9.6 MHz clock for the RTCM in order to ensure the audio sounds acceptable in the overlap areas. I did this a few months ago using 9.6 MHz OCXO’s. This worked reasonably well. Not as well as I would have liked but the system was very usable, but of course I wanted it to be better. Since the PCGM (Programmable Clock Generation Module) is no longer available, I decided to roll my own as some say.

I created a PLL circuit that can accept a 10 MHz, 1 MHz or 100 KHz reference input and produce a phase locked 9.6 MHz out for the RTCM. I have been testing this over the past few days and it has made an great improvement in the audio quality in the overlap. The quality of the audio in the overlap areas sounds very, very good, it’s very similar to what I expect to hear in commercial simulcast systems. My circuit is heavily based off of an old Motorola MSF5000 HSO PLL circuit that I was able to adapt and modify to my needs. There are other uses for this circuit that make it attractive for simulcasting but I wont get into them here. I am will to share my schematic and bill of materials (digikey) with anyone. Please send me an email and I will be willing to share all of my information on the project.
Joe,

Why not consider do it as an article for Repeater Builder?

Thanks,

Kevin

On 5/7/2017 3:13 AM, Joe Moskalski wrote:


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Tim

So It would be good, now from what Info I have, I will still need another gps for the nmea and 1 pps to feed the rtcm?

···

On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 5:00 PM, Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com wrote:

after reading on gps locked clock and pll found this.

http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=107&products_id=234

Low-jitter GPS-locked precision frequency reference

450 Hz to 800 MHz output

this could be usefull to steer about any radio model no?

Is it worth the time and money to try with this device?

Le ven. 12 mai 2017 à 17:39, Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com a écrit :

A big thanks Tim. I feel less uneducated :wink: Will have to get a look at this…


App_rpt-users mailing list

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2017-05-12 12:03 GMT-04:00 Tim Sawyer tisawyer@gmail.com:

Political Correctness Gone Mad. :smile:

Actually it’s Programmable Clock Generator Module.

K

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 8:38 PM Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com wrote:

I know there is always the one that ask the obvious question but, what is a pcgm?

Le lun. 8 mai 2017 à 23:10, Tim Sawyer tisawyer@gmail.com a écrit :

The PCGM were noisy. I know of a case where a ham using one was shut down by the site owner. Seems the PCGM was emitting a interfering signal on high band, around 158 Mhz.


App_rpt-users mailing list

App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlink.org

http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users

To unsubscribe from this list please visit http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users and scroll down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email address and press the “Unsubscribe or edit options button”

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Tim


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On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Bryan Fields bryan@bryanfields.net wrote:

I’ve been following this with some interest. One of the fundamental issues with the PCGM was the master clock going to the radio was unable to be modulated. This made low frequency signals (PL) distort, and digital PL was even worse.

Typically most radios use two point modulation, with modulation on the reference oscillator. When you add an external reference you loose this.

Some base stations are designed to do two point modulation even on an external clock, the Quantar for example. This station will even phase lock it’s PL and DPL generation if provided a 1 PPS in addition to a clock.

If we could inject modulation into the clock generator simulcast performance would vastly improve. I’d be interested to see your design to see if this would be a possibility.

Thoughts?

Bryan Fields

M: +1-727-409-1194

On May 8, 2017, at 14:15, Reid Brandon rfpowerguy@yahoo.com wrote:

Hi Joe,

I got a page with a pic of a man that rotated around saying DOWNLOAD NOT FOUND.

Try again!?

Tks Reid

On Sunday, May 7, 2017 12:25 PM, Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com wrote:

I am very interrested in all this project. My email is VE2PF @ VE2MRC dot com!

what radio did you used for the project?

Thanks for sharing!

Pierre

VE2PF

2017-05-07 12:32 GMT-04:00 Kevin Custer kuggie@kuggie.com:

I wanted to throw this email out to the group for all those who want to simulcast with the RTCM. For those who don’t know, in order to make the RTCM suitable for simulcast you must have a more accurate 9.6 MHz clock for the RTCM in order to ensure the audio sounds acceptable in the overlap areas. I did this a few months ago using 9.6 MHz OCXO’s. This worked reasonably well. Not as well as I would have liked but the system was very usable, but of course I wanted it to be better. Since the PCGM (Programmable Clock Generation Module) is no longer available, I decided to roll my own as some say.

I created a PLL circuit that can accept a 10 MHz, 1 MHz or 100 KHz reference input and produce a phase locked 9.6 MHz out for the RTCM. I have been testing this over the past few days and it has made an great improvement in the audio quality in the overlap. The quality of the audio in the overlap areas sounds very, very good, it’s very similar to what I expect to hear in commercial simulcast systems. My circuit is heavily based off of an old Motorola MSF5000 HSO PLL circuit that I was able to adapt and modify to my needs. There are other uses for this circuit that make it attractive for simulcasting but I wont get into them here. I am will to share my schematic and bill of materials (digikey) with anyone. Please send me an email and I will be willing to share all of my information on the project.
Joe,

Why not consider do it as an article for Repeater Builder?

Thanks,

Kevin

On 5/7/2017 3:13 AM, Joe Moskalski wrote:


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Tim

That is correct. Unfortunately the Leo Bodnar unit doesn’t provide that.

···

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com wrote:

So It would be good, now from what Info I have, I will still need another gps for the nmea and 1 pps to feed the rtcm?

Le mer. 7 juin 2017 à 03:46, Joe Moskalski kc2irv@gmail.com a écrit :

I purchased one of those units about 2 months ago and they work extremely well. I have used it to allow the use of Motorola Maxtrac’s and GM300’s for simulcast operation by externally injecting a 14.4 MHz reference into the radio from this unit.

if you want a ready-made solution that will give you GPS locked accuracy and is programmable to just about any frequency you would need than this is it.


App_rpt-users mailing list

App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlink.org

http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users

To unsubscribe from this list please visit http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users and scroll down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email address and press the “Unsubscribe or edit options button”

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On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 5:00 PM, Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com wrote:

after reading on gps locked clock and pll found this.

http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=107&products_id=234

Low-jitter GPS-locked precision frequency reference

450 Hz to 800 MHz output

this could be usefull to steer about any radio model no?

Is it worth the time and money to try with this device?

Le ven. 12 mai 2017 à 17:39, Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com a écrit :

A big thanks Tim. I feel less uneducated :wink: Will have to get a look at this…


App_rpt-users mailing list

App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlink.org

http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users

To unsubscribe from this list please visit http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users and scroll down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email address and press the “Unsubscribe or edit options button”

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2017-05-12 12:03 GMT-04:00 Tim Sawyer tisawyer@gmail.com:

Political Correctness Gone Mad. :smile:

Actually it’s Programmable Clock Generator Module.

K

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 8:38 PM Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com wrote:

I know there is always the one that ask the obvious question but, what is a pcgm?

Le lun. 8 mai 2017 à 23:10, Tim Sawyer tisawyer@gmail.com a écrit :

The PCGM were noisy. I know of a case where a ham using one was shut down by the site owner. Seems the PCGM was emitting a interfering signal on high band, around 158 Mhz.


App_rpt-users mailing list

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On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Bryan Fields bryan@bryanfields.net wrote:

I’ve been following this with some interest. One of the fundamental issues with the PCGM was the master clock going to the radio was unable to be modulated. This made low frequency signals (PL) distort, and digital PL was even worse.

Typically most radios use two point modulation, with modulation on the reference oscillator. When you add an external reference you loose this.

Some base stations are designed to do two point modulation even on an external clock, the Quantar for example. This station will even phase lock it’s PL and DPL generation if provided a 1 PPS in addition to a clock.

If we could inject modulation into the clock generator simulcast performance would vastly improve. I’d be interested to see your design to see if this would be a possibility.

Thoughts?

Bryan Fields

M: +1-727-409-1194

On May 8, 2017, at 14:15, Reid Brandon rfpowerguy@yahoo.com wrote:

Hi Joe,

I got a page with a pic of a man that rotated around saying DOWNLOAD NOT FOUND.

Try again!?

Tks Reid

On Sunday, May 7, 2017 12:25 PM, Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com wrote:

I am very interrested in all this project. My email is VE2PF @ VE2MRC dot com!

what radio did you used for the project?

Thanks for sharing!

Pierre

VE2PF

2017-05-07 12:32 GMT-04:00 Kevin Custer kuggie@kuggie.com:

I wanted to throw this email out to the group for all those who want to simulcast with the RTCM. For those who don’t know, in order to make the RTCM suitable for simulcast you must have a more accurate 9.6 MHz clock for the RTCM in order to ensure the audio sounds acceptable in the overlap areas. I did this a few months ago using 9.6 MHz OCXO’s. This worked reasonably well. Not as well as I would have liked but the system was very usable, but of course I wanted it to be better. Since the PCGM (Programmable Clock Generation Module) is no longer available, I decided to roll my own as some say.

I created a PLL circuit that can accept a 10 MHz, 1 MHz or 100 KHz reference input and produce a phase locked 9.6 MHz out for the RTCM. I have been testing this over the past few days and it has made an great improvement in the audio quality in the overlap. The quality of the audio in the overlap areas sounds very, very good, it’s very similar to what I expect to hear in commercial simulcast systems. My circuit is heavily based off of an old Motorola MSF5000 HSO PLL circuit that I was able to adapt and modify to my needs. There are other uses for this circuit that make it attractive for simulcasting but I wont get into them here. I am will to share my schematic and bill of materials (digikey) with anyone. Please send me an email and I will be willing to share all of my information on the project.
Joe,

Why not consider do it as an article for Repeater Builder?

Thanks,

Kevin

On 5/7/2017 3:13 AM, Joe Moskalski wrote:


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Tim

Hi Joe & Others,
Being an old subject I am wondering if anyone
can please share parts list, Gerber files etc. on this PLL project to produce the stable 9.6 MHz clocking frequency?

Thanks for any help!

My email is hunter (dot) paul at comcast (dot) net

Have a look at:

https://wiki.allstarlink.org/wiki/VOTER
and
https://wiki.allstarlink.org/wiki/ASLCorporate:Thru-hole_Voter_Board

SMT assembled units are available:
http://micro-node.com/thin-m1.shtml