RTCM Simulcast and 9.6 MHz Phase locking

Kc2irv · May 7, 2017, 7:13am

I wanted to throw this email out to the group for all those who want to simulcast with the RTCM. For those who don’t know, in order to make the RTCM suitable for simulcast you must have a more accurate 9.6 MHz clock for the RTCM in order to ensure the audio sounds acceptable in the overlap areas. I did this a few months ago using 9.6 MHz OCXO’s. This worked reasonably well. Not as well as I would have liked but the system was very usable, but of course I wanted it to be better. Since the PCGM (Programmable Clock Generation Module) is no longer available, I decided to roll my own as some say.

I created a PLL circuit that can accept a 10 MHz, 1 MHz or 100 KHz reference input and produce a phase locked 9.6 MHz out for the RTCM. I have been testing this over the past few days and it has made an great improvement in the audio quality in the overlap. The quality of the audio in the overlap areas sounds very, very good, it’s very similar to what I expect to hear in commercial simulcast systems. My circuit is heavily based off of an old Motorola MSF5000 HSO PLL circuit that I was able to adapt and modify to my needs. There are other uses for this circuit that make it attractive for simulcasting but I wont get into them here. I am will to share my schematic and bill of materials (digikey) with anyone. Please send me an email and I will be willing to share all of my information on the project.

Virus-free. www.avast.com

K4SAT · May 7, 2017, 7:42am

Thanks Joe;

  I would certainly be interested in your documentation. Does this

solve the problem of transmit PL tone jumping phase on key up, as
Hayden encountered?

Joe L

···

On 5/7/2017 3:13 AM, Joe Moskalski
wrote:

      I wanted to throw this email out to the group for all those
who want to simulcast with the RTCM. For those who don’t know,
in order to make the RTCM suitable for simulcast you must have
a more accurate 9.6 MHz clock for the RTCM in order to ensure
the audio sounds acceptable in the overlap areas. I did this a
few months ago using 9.6 MHz OCXO’s. This worked reasonably
well. Not as well as I would have liked but the system was
very usable, but of course I wanted it to be better. Since the
PCGM (Programmable Clock Generation Module) is no longer
available, I decided to roll my own as some say.

    I created a PLL circuit that can accept a 10 MHz, 1 MHz or 100
KHz reference input and produce a phase locked 9.6 MHz out for
the RTCM. I have been testing this over the past few days and it
has made an great improvement in the audio quality in the
overlap. The quality of the audio in the overlap areas sounds
very, very good, it’s very similar to what I expect to hear in
commercial simulcast systems. My circuit is heavily based off of
an old Motorola MSF5000 HSO PLL circuit that I was able to adapt
and modify to my needs. There are other uses for this circuit
that make it attractive for simulcasting but I wont get into
them here. I am will to share my schematic and bill of materials
(digikey) with anyone. Please send me an email and I will be
willing to share all of my information on the project.

Virus-free.
www.avast.com




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-- Joe Leikhim
Leikhim and Associates
Communications Consultants
Oviedo, Florida
407-982-0446

App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlink.org http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users JLeikhim@Leikhim.com WWW.LEIKHIM.COM

kuggie · May 7, 2017, 4:32pm

Joe,

Why not consider do it as an article for Repeater Builder?

Thanks,
Kevin

···

On 5/7/2017 3:13 AM, Joe Moskalski wrote:

I wanted to throw this email out to the group for all those who want to simulcast with the RTCM. For those who don't know, in order to make the RTCM suitable for simulcast you must have a more accurate 9.6 MHz clock for the RTCM in order to ensure the audio sounds acceptable in the overlap areas. I did this a few months ago using 9.6 MHz OCXO's. This worked reasonably well. Not as well as I would have liked but the system was very usable, but of course I wanted it to be better. Since the PCGM (Programmable Clock Generation Module) is no longer available, I decided to roll my own as some say.
I created a PLL circuit that can accept a 10 MHz, 1 MHz or 100 KHz reference input and produce a phase locked 9.6 MHz out for the RTCM. I have been testing this over the past few days and it has made an great improvement in the audio quality in the overlap. The quality of the audio in the overlap areas sounds very, very good, it's very similar to what I expect to hear in commercial simulcast systems. My circuit is heavily based off of an old Motorola MSF5000 HSO PLL circuit that I was able to adapt and modify to my needs. There are other uses for this circuit that make it attractive for simulcasting but I wont get into them here. I am will to share my schematic and bill of materials (digikey) with anyone. Please send me an email and I will be willing to share all of my information on the project.

Pierre_Martel · May 7, 2017, 7:25pm

I am very interrested in all this project. My email is VE2PF @ VE2MRC dot com!

what radio did you used for the project?

Thanks for sharing!

Pierre

VE2PF

···

2017-05-07 12:32 GMT-04:00 Kevin Custer kuggie@kuggie.com:

I wanted to throw this email out to the group for all those who want to simulcast with the RTCM. For those who don’t know, in order to make the RTCM suitable for simulcast you must have a more accurate 9.6 MHz clock for the RTCM in order to ensure the audio sounds acceptable in the overlap areas. I did this a few months ago using 9.6 MHz OCXO’s. This worked reasonably well. Not as well as I would have liked but the system was very usable, but of course I wanted it to be better. Since the PCGM (Programmable Clock Generation Module) is no longer available, I decided to roll my own as some say.

I created a PLL circuit that can accept a 10 MHz, 1 MHz or 100 KHz reference input and produce a phase locked 9.6 MHz out for the RTCM. I have been testing this over the past few days and it has made an great improvement in the audio quality in the overlap. The quality of the audio in the overlap areas sounds very, very good, it’s very similar to what I expect to hear in commercial simulcast systems. My circuit is heavily based off of an old Motorola MSF5000 HSO PLL circuit that I was able to adapt and modify to my needs. There are other uses for this circuit that make it attractive for simulcasting but I wont get into them here. I am will to share my schematic and bill of materials (digikey) with anyone. Please send me an email and I will be willing to share all of my information on the project.
Joe,

Why not consider do it as an article for Repeater Builder?

Thanks,

Kevin

On 5/7/2017 3:13 AM, Joe Moskalski wrote:

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rfpowerguy1 · May 8, 2017, 6:11pm

Hi Joe,

I got a page with a pic of a man that rotated around saying DOWNLOAD NOT FOUND.

Try again!?

Tks Reid

I am very interrested in all this project. My email is VE2PF @ VE2MRC dot com!

what radio did you used for the project?

Thanks for sharing!

Pierre

VE2PF

···

On Sunday, May 7, 2017 12:25 PM, Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com wrote:

2017-05-07 12:32 GMT-04:00 Kevin Custer kuggie@kuggie.com:

Joe,

Why not consider do it as an article for Repeater Builder?

Thanks,

Kevin

On 5/7/2017 3:13 AM, Joe Moskalski wrote:

I wanted to throw this email out to the group for all those who want to simulcast with the RTCM. For those who don’t know, in order to make the RTCM suitable for simulcast you must have a more accurate 9.6 MHz clock for the RTCM in order to ensure the audio sounds acceptable in the overlap areas. I did this a few months ago using 9.6 MHz OCXO’s. This worked reasonably well. Not as well as I would have liked but the system was very usable, but of course I wanted it to be better. Since the PCGM (Programmable Clock Generation Module) is no longer available, I decided to roll my own as some say.

I created a PLL circuit that can accept a 10 MHz, 1 MHz or 100 KHz reference input and produce a phase locked 9.6 MHz out for the RTCM. I have been testing this over the past few days and it has made an great improvement in the audio quality in the overlap. The quality of the audio in the overlap areas sounds very, very good, it’s very similar to what I expect to hear in commercial simulcast systems. My circuit is heavily based off of an old Motorola MSF5000 HSO PLL circuit that I was able to adapt and modify to my needs. There are other uses for this circuit that make it attractive for simulcasting but I wont get into them here. I am will to share my schematic and bill of materials (digikey) with anyone. Please send me an email and I will be willing to share all of my information on the project.

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W9CR · May 8, 2017, 8:33pm

I’ve been following this with some interest. One of the fundamental issues with the PCGM was the master clock going to the radio was unable to be modulated. This made low frequency signals (PL) distort, and digital PL was even worse.

···

Typically most radios use two point modulation, with modulation on the reference oscillator. When you add an external reference you loose this.

Some base stations are designed to do two point modulation even on an external clock, the Quantar for example. This station will even phase lock it’s PL and DPL generation if provided a 1 PPS in addition to a clock.

If we could inject modulation into the clock generator simulcast performance would vastly improve. I’d be interested to see your design to see if this would be a possibility.

Thoughts?

–

Bryan Fields

M: +1-727-409-1194

On May 8, 2017, at 14:15, Reid Brandon rfpowerguy@yahoo.com wrote:

Hi Joe,

I got a page with a pic of a man that rotated around saying DOWNLOAD NOT FOUND.

Try again!?

Tks Reid

On Sunday, May 7, 2017 12:25 PM, Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com wrote:

I am very interrested in all this project. My email is VE2PF @ VE2MRC dot com!

what radio did you used for the project?

Thanks for sharing!

Pierre

VE2PF

2017-05-07 12:32 GMT-04:00 Kevin Custer kuggie@kuggie.com:

Joe,

Why not consider do it as an article for Repeater Builder?

Thanks,

Kevin

On 5/7/2017 3:13 AM, Joe Moskalski wrote:

I wanted to throw this email out to the group for all those who want to simulcast with the RTCM. For those who don’t know, in order to make the RTCM suitable for simulcast you must have a more accurate 9.6 MHz clock for the RTCM in order to ensure the audio sounds acceptable in the overlap areas. I did this a few months ago using 9.6 MHz OCXO’s. This worked reasonably well. Not as well as I would have liked but the system was very usable, but of course I wanted it to be better. Since the PCGM (Programmable Clock Generation Module) is no longer available, I decided to roll my own as some say.

I created a PLL circuit that can accept a 10 MHz, 1 MHz or 100 KHz reference input and produce a phase locked 9.6 MHz out for the RTCM. I have been testing this over the past few days and it has made an great improvement in the audio quality in the overlap. The quality of the audio in the overlap areas sounds very, very good, it’s very similar to what I expect to hear in commercial simulcast systems. My circuit is heavily based off of an old Motorola MSF5000 HSO PLL circuit that I was able to adapt and modify to my needs. There are other uses for this circuit that make it attractive for simulcasting but I wont get into them here. I am will to share my schematic and bill of materials (digikey) with anyone. Please send me an email and I will be willing to share all of my information on the project.

App_rpt-users mailing list

App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlin k.org

http://lists.allstarlink.org/c gi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rp t-users

To unsubscribe from this list please visit http://lists.allstarlink.org/c gi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rp t-users and scroll down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email address and press the “Unsubscribe or edit options button”

You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you can do it via email confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing, please send a message to the list detailing the problem.

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K4SAT · May 8, 2017, 9:26pm

I think it is a bit more complicated than that. If you dither the
reference oscillator of a repeater, it will also have an effect on
the demodulated PL/DPL from the receiver. Some half duplex
transceivers indeed apply modulation compensation directly to the
reference oscillators, and others do not, but employ alternative
compensation techniques.

This from a Quantar Manual

    Modulation


    The active VCO receives an audio/data modulation         signal from the Station Control
Module via two low-pass filters. This modulation
signal modulates the active VCO to produce a modulated
low-level rf carrier signal.
    Low-frequency modulation         signals
(below the loop filter corner) tend to be interpreted by the PLL
as VCO frequency error. A modulation compensation signal is
added to the PLL control voltage to cancel out this
effect and allow for low frequency modulation.

The trick I believe, is in the way the PL/DPL is presented to the

station and if the modulation compensation adjustment is sufficient
to track out the PLL’s tendency to cancel the low frequency tones.

Joe Leikhim

···

On 5/8/2017 4:33 PM, Bryan Fields
wrote:

    I've been following this with some interest.  One of the
fundamental issues with the PCGM was the master clock going to
the radio was unable to be modulated. This made low frequency
signals (PL) distort, and digital PL was even worse.

    Typically most radios use two point
modulation, with modulation on the reference oscillator. When
you add an external reference you loose this.

    Some base stations are designed to do
two point modulation even on an external clock, the Quantar for
example. This station will even phase lock it’s PL and DPL
generation if provided a 1 PPS in addition to a clock.

    If we could inject modulation into
the clock generator simulcast performance would vastly improve.
I’d be interested to see your design to see if this would be a
possibility.

Thoughts?

–

Bryan Fields

M: +1-727-409-1194

    On May 8, 2017, at 14:15, Reid Brandon <rfpowerguy@yahoo.com        >

wrote:

Hi Joe,

          I got a page
with a pic of a man that rotated around saying DOWNLOAD
NOT FOUND.

Try again!?

Tks Reid

On Sunday,
May 7, 2017 12:25 PM, Pierre Martel <petem001@gmail.com >
wrote:

                      I am very interrested in all this

project. My email is VE2PF @ VE2MRC dot com!

what radio did you used for the project?

Thanks for sharing!

Pierre

VE2PF

                          2017-05-07
12:32 GMT-04:00 Kevin Custer kuggie@kuggie.com:
Joe,
                            Why not consider do it as an article for
Repeater Builder?
                            Thanks,

                            Kevin





                              On 5/7/2017 3:13 AM, Joe Moskalski
wrote:
                              I wanted to throw this email out to
the group for all those who want to
simulcast with the RTCM. For those who
don’t know, in order to make the RTCM
suitable for simulcast you must have a
more accurate 9.6 MHz clock for the
RTCM in order to ensure the audio
sounds acceptable in the overlap
areas. I did this a few months ago
using 9.6 MHz OCXO’s. This worked
reasonably well. Not as well as I
would have liked but the system was
very usable, but of course I wanted it
to be better. Since the PCGM
(Programmable Clock Generation Module)
is no longer available, I decided to
roll my own as some say.
                              I created a PLL circuit that can
accept a 10 MHz, 1 MHz or 100 KHz
reference input and produce a phase
locked 9.6 MHz out for the RTCM. I
have been testing this over the past
few days and it has made an great
improvement in the audio quality in
the overlap. The quality of the audio
in the overlap areas sounds very, very
good, it’s very similar to what I
expect to hear in commercial simulcast
systems. My circuit is heavily based
off of an old Motorola MSF5000 HSO PLL
circuit that I was able to adapt and
modify to my needs. There are other
uses for this circuit that make it
attractive for simulcasting but I wont
get into them here. I am will to share
my schematic and bill of materials
(digikey) with anyone. Please send me
an email and I will be willing to
share all of my information on the
project.
                                ______________________________
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                                                                      App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlin
k.org
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To unsubscribe from this list please visit and scroll down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email address and press the "Unsubscribe or edit options button"
You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you can do it via email confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing, please send a message to the list detailing the problem.


-- Joe Leikhim
Leikhim and Associates
Communications Consultants
Oviedo, Florida
407-982-0446

App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlink.org http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users JLeikhim@Leikhim.com WWW.LEIKHIM.COM

K4SAT · May 8, 2017, 9:32pm

    More on
this:
    Exciter Modulation         Signals


    Digitized audio/data intended to be transmitted from the station
is output from the DSP circuitry to a D/A converter via the
TX/Voice Audio signal (p/o the Serial Synchronous Interface bus,
connected between the DSP and the DSP ASIC). The digitized
signal is converted to analog, level shifted and amplified, and
fed to a 0-6 kHz filter. The output of the filter is then fed to
one of the inputs of a multiplexer. The output of the
multiplexer is fed to two individual digitally controlled
potentiometers (each of which is adjusted by the Host uP via the
SPI Bus) and output to the Exciter Module as modulation signals VCO MOD AUDIO and
REF MOD AUDIO.

···

On 5/8/2017 5:26 PM, Joe Leikhim wrote:

    I think it is a bit more complicated than that. If you dither
the reference oscillator of a repeater, it will also have an
effect on the demodulated PL/DPL from the receiver. Some half
duplex transceivers indeed apply modulation compensation
directly to the reference oscillators, and others do not, but
employ alternative compensation techniques.

This from a Quantar Manual
      Modulation


      The active VCO receives an audio/data modulation           signal from the Station
Control Module via two low-pass filters. This modulation signal modulates the
active VCO to produce a modulated low-level rf carrier signal.
      Low-frequency modulation           signals
(below the loop filter corner) tend to be interpreted by the
PLL as VCO frequency error. A modulation compensation signal
is added to the PLL control voltage to cancel out this
effect and allow for low frequency modulation.

  The trick I believe, is in the way the PL/DPL is presented to the
station and if the modulation compensation adjustment is
sufficient to track out the PLL’s tendency to cancel the low
frequency tones.
  Joe Leikhim


-- Joe Leikhim
Leikhim and Associates
Communications Consultants
Oviedo, Florida
407-982-0446

    On 5/8/2017 4:33 PM, Bryan Fields

wrote:

      I've been following this with some interest.  One of the
fundamental issues with the PCGM was the master clock going to
the radio was unable to be modulated. This made low frequency
signals (PL) distort, and digital PL was even worse.

      Typically most radios use two point
modulation, with modulation on the reference oscillator. When
you add an external reference you loose this.

      Some base stations are designed to
do two point modulation even on an external clock, the Quantar
for example. This station will even phase lock it’s PL and
DPL generation if provided a 1 PPS in addition to a clock.

      If we could inject modulation into
the clock generator simulcast performance would vastly
improve. I’d be interested to see your design to see if this
would be a possibility.

Thoughts?

–

Bryan Fields

M: +1-727-409-1194

      On May 8, 2017, at 14:15, Reid Brandon <rfpowerguy@yahoo.com          >

wrote:

Hi Joe,

            I got a
page with a pic of a man that rotated around saying
DOWNLOAD NOT FOUND.

Try again!?

Tks Reid

On
Sunday, May 7, 2017 12:25 PM, Pierre Martel <petem001@gmail.com >
wrote:

                        I am very interrested in all
this project. My email is VE2PF @ VE2MRC dot
com!

                          what radio did you used for the

project?

Thanks for sharing!

Pierre

VE2PF

                            2017-05-07
12:32 GMT-04:00 Kevin Custer kuggie@kuggie.com:
Joe,
                              Why not consider do it as an article
for Repeater Builder?
                              Thanks,

                              Kevin





                                On 5/7/2017 3:13 AM, Joe Moskalski
wrote:
                                I wanted
to throw this email out to the group
for all those who want to simulcast
with the RTCM. For those who don’t
know, in order to make the RTCM
suitable for simulcast you must have
a more accurate 9.6 MHz clock for
the RTCM in order to ensure the
audio sounds acceptable in the
overlap areas. I did this a few
months ago using 9.6 MHz OCXO’s.
This worked reasonably well. Not as
well as I would have liked but the
system was very usable, but of
course I wanted it to be better.
Since the PCGM (Programmable Clock
Generation Module) is no longer
available, I decided to roll my own
as some say.
                                I created a PLL circuit that can
accept a 10 MHz, 1 MHz or 100 KHz
reference input and produce a phase
locked 9.6 MHz out for the RTCM. I
have been testing this over the past
few days and it has made an great
improvement in the audio quality in
the overlap. The quality of the
audio in the overlap areas sounds
very, very good, it’s very similar
to what I expect to hear in
commercial simulcast systems. My
circuit is heavily based off of an
old Motorola MSF5000 HSO PLL circuit
that I was able to adapt and modify
to my needs. There are other uses
for this circuit that make it
attractive for simulcasting but I
wont get into them here. I am will
to share my schematic and bill of
materials (digikey) with anyone.
Please send me an email and I will
be willing to share all of my
information on the project.
                                  ______________________________
                                  App_rpt-users mailing list

                                                                          App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlin
k.org
                                  [                                        http://lists.allstarlink.org/c
gi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rp
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-- Joe Leikhim
Leikhim and Associates
Communications Consultants
Oviedo, Florida
407-982-0446

JLeikhim@Leikhim.com WWW.LEIKHIM.COM


_______________________________________________
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W9CR · May 9, 2017, 12:17am

I think it is a bit more complicated than that. If you dither the reference
oscillator of a repeater, it will also have an effect on the demodulated
PL/DPL from the receiver. Some half duplex transceivers indeed apply
modulation compensation directly to the reference oscillators, and others do
not, but employ alternative compensation techniques.

Well in this case it would only be applied to the transmitter. The receiver
really doesn't need a reference to GPS.

This would be a cheap and dirty way to make it work while phase locked to a
GPSDO.

This from a Quantar Manual

    Modulation
    The active VCO receives an audio/data modulation signal from the Station
    Control Module via two low-pass filters. This modulation signal modulates
    the active VCO to produce a modulated low-level rf carrier signal.

    Low-frequency modulation signals (below the loop filter corner) tend to be
    interpreted by the PLL as VCO frequency error. A modulation compensation
    signal is added to the PLL _control voltage_ to cancel out this effect and
    allow for low frequency modulation.

Specific to the Quantar it has an internal 2.1 MHz reference derived from it's
16.4 MHz clock or 5/10 MHz external inputs. There is a separate reference
from the SCM DSP chip for TX and RX.

On the exciter the custom PLL chip has a dedicated REF_AUDIO input of which it
uses to modulate the divided down reference frequency. The normal VCO_AUDIO
is injected post filter through a resistor divider into the mod input on the
VCO (UHF1-4) or into a parallel diode (VHF/UHF0/800/900).

I could be wrong on my PLL theory here, but as the chip is a black box, what I
know is based on logic analyzers and probing. I'm pretty confident it's
modulating the reference frequency. It's the same chip as what's in the Astro
Spectra.

The trick I believe, is in the way the PL/DPL is presented to the station and
if the modulation compensation adjustment is sufficient to track out the PLL's
tendency to cancel the low frequency tones.

While you can get it close for PL or DPL, digital modes require two point
modulation.

···

On 5/8/17 5:26 PM, Joe Leikhim wrote:

--
Bryan Fields

727-409-1194 - Voice
http://bryanfields.net

tsawyer · May 9, 2017, 3:10am

The PCGM were noisy. I know of a case where a ham using one was shut down by the site owner. Seems the PCGM was emitting a interfering signal on high band, around 158 Mhz.

···

On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Bryan Fields bryan@bryanfields.net wrote:

I’ve been following this with some interest. One of the fundamental issues with the PCGM was the master clock going to the radio was unable to be modulated. This made low frequency signals (PL) distort, and digital PL was even worse.

Typically most radios use two point modulation, with modulation on the reference oscillator. When you add an external reference you loose this.

Some base stations are designed to do two point modulation even on an external clock, the Quantar for example. This station will even phase lock it’s PL and DPL generation if provided a 1 PPS in addition to a clock.

If we could inject modulation into the clock generator simulcast performance would vastly improve. I’d be interested to see your design to see if this would be a possibility.

Thoughts?

–

Bryan Fields

M: +1-727-409-1194

On May 8, 2017, at 14:15, Reid Brandon rfpowerguy@yahoo.com wrote:

Hi Joe,

I got a page with a pic of a man that rotated around saying DOWNLOAD NOT FOUND.

Try again!?

Tks Reid

On Sunday, May 7, 2017 12:25 PM, Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com wrote:

I am very interrested in all this project. My email is VE2PF @ VE2MRC dot com!

what radio did you used for the project?

Thanks for sharing!

Pierre

VE2PF

2017-05-07 12:32 GMT-04:00 Kevin Custer kuggie@kuggie.com:

I wanted to throw this email out to the group for all those who want to simulcast with the RTCM. For those who don’t know, in order to make the RTCM suitable for simulcast you must have a more accurate 9.6 MHz clock for the RTCM in order to ensure the audio sounds acceptable in the overlap areas. I did this a few months ago using 9.6 MHz OCXO’s. This worked reasonably well. Not as well as I would have liked but the system was very usable, but of course I wanted it to be better. Since the PCGM (Programmable Clock Generation Module) is no longer available, I decided to roll my own as some say.

I created a PLL circuit that can accept a 10 MHz, 1 MHz or 100 KHz reference input and produce a phase locked 9.6 MHz out for the RTCM. I have been testing this over the past few days and it has made an great improvement in the audio quality in the overlap. The quality of the audio in the overlap areas sounds very, very good, it’s very similar to what I expect to hear in commercial simulcast systems. My circuit is heavily based off of an old Motorola MSF5000 HSO PLL circuit that I was able to adapt and modify to my needs. There are other uses for this circuit that make it attractive for simulcasting but I wont get into them here. I am will to share my schematic and bill of materials (digikey) with anyone. Please send me an email and I will be willing to share all of my information on the project.
Joe,

Why not consider do it as an article for Repeater Builder?

Thanks,

Kevin

On 5/7/2017 3:13 AM, Joe Moskalski wrote:

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–

Tim

K4SAT · May 9, 2017, 6:24am

I wonder what kind of enclosure he had it in?

···

On 5/8/2017 11:10 PM, Tim Sawyer wrote:

    The PCGM were noisy. I know of a case where a ham
using one was shut down by the site owner. Seems the PCGM was
emitting a interfering signal on high band, around 158 Mhz.

      On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Bryan
Fields bryan@bryanfields.net
wrote:
            I've been following this with some interest.  One of
the fundamental issues with the PCGM was the master
clock going to the radio was unable to be modulated.
This made low frequency signals (PL) distort, and
digital PL was even worse.

            Typically
most radios use two point modulation, with modulation on
the reference oscillator. When you add an external
reference you loose this.

            Some
base stations are designed to do two point modulation
even on an external clock, the Quantar for example.
This station will even phase lock it’s PL and DPL
generation if provided a 1 PPS in addition to a clock.

            If we
could inject modulation into the clock generator
simulcast performance would vastly improve. I’d be
interested to see your design to see if this would be a
possibility.

Thoughts?

–

Bryan Fields

M: +1-727-409-1194

            On May 8, 2017, at 14:15, Reid Brandon <rfpowerguy@yahoo.com                >

wrote:

Hi

Joe,

                  I
got a page with a pic of a man that rotated
around saying DOWNLOAD NOT FOUND.

Try

again!?

Tks

Reid

                            On Sunday, May 7, 2017 12:25 PM, Pierre

Martel <petem001@gmail.com >
wrote:

                                I am very interrested

in all this project. My email is
VE2PF @ VE2MRC dot com!

                                  what radio did you used for the

project?

Thanks for sharing!

Pierre

VE2PF

                                    2017-05-07 12:32
GMT-04:00 Kevin Custer kuggie@kuggie.com:
                                        I wanted to throw this email
out to the group for all
those who want to simulcast
with the RTCM. For those who
don’t know, in order to make
the RTCM suitable for
simulcast you must have a
more accurate 9.6 MHz clock
for the RTCM in order to
ensure the audio sounds
acceptable in the overlap
areas. I did this a few
months ago using 9.6 MHz
OCXO’s. This worked
reasonably well. Not as well
as I would have liked but
the system was very usable,
but of course I wanted it to
be better. Since the PCGM
(Programmable Clock
Generation Module) is no
longer available, I decided
to roll my own as some say.
                                        I created a PLL circuit that
can accept a 10 MHz, 1 MHz
or 100 KHz reference input
and produce a phase locked
9.6 MHz out for the RTCM. I
have been testing this over
the past few days and it has
made an great improvement in
the audio quality in the
overlap. The quality of the
audio in the overlap areas
sounds very, very good, it’s
very similar to what I
expect to hear in commercial
simulcast systems. My
circuit is heavily based off
of an old Motorola MSF5000
HSO PLL circuit that I was
able to adapt and modify to
my needs. There are other
uses for this circuit that
make it attractive for
simulcasting but I wont get
into them here. I am will to
share my schematic and bill
of materials (digikey) with
anyone. Please send me an
email and I will be willing
to share all of my
information on the project.
Joe,
                                      Why not consider do it as an
article for Repeater Builder?
                                      Thanks,

                                      Kevin





                                        On 5/7/2017 3:13 AM, Joe
Moskalski wrote:
                                          App_rpt-users mailing list

                                                                                          App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlin
k.org
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gi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rp t-users](http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users)
                                        To unsubscribe from this
list please visit http://lists.allstarlink.org/c
gi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rp t-users and scroll down to the bottom
of the page. Enter your
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“Unsubscribe or edit options
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                                          You do not need a password
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detailing the problem.

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                  and scroll down to the bottom of the page. Enter

your email address and press the “Unsubscribe or
edit options button”

                                      You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you

can do it via email confirmation. If you have
trouble unsubscribing, please send a message to
the list detailing the problem.

        _______________________________________________

        App_rpt-users mailing list

        App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlink.org

        [http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users](http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users)



        To unsubscribe from this list please visit [http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users](http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users)
        and scroll down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email

address and press the “Unsubscribe or edit options button”

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please send a message to the list detailing the problem.

–

Tim




_______________________________________________
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You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you can do it via email confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing, please send a message to the list detailing the problem.


-- Joe Leikhim
Leikhim and Associates
Communications Consultants
Oviedo, Florida
407-982-0446

App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlink.org http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users JLeikhim@Leikhim.com WWW.LEIKHIM.COM

K4SAT · May 9, 2017, 6:29am

Does the Quantar give you an option of running the receiver on its own reference oscillator? Reason I ask is that Motorola Simulcast don't dither the site reference oscillator of the TX to my knowledge. A multi channel simulcast system might have 20 trunked stations each with different low speed data streams at any moment.

···

On 5/8/2017 8:17 PM, Bryan Fields wrote:

On 5/8/17 5:26 PM, Joe Leikhim wrote:

I think it is a bit more complicated than that. If you dither the reference
oscillator of a repeater, it will also have an effect on the demodulated
PL/DPL from the receiver. Some half duplex transceivers indeed apply
modulation compensation directly to the reference oscillators, and others do
not, but employ alternative compensation techniques.

Well in this case it would only be applied to the transmitter. The receiver
really doesn't need a reference to GPS.

This would be a cheap and dirty way to make it work while phase locked to a
GPSDO.

This from a Quantar Manual

     Modulation
     The active VCO receives an audio/data modulation signal from the Station
     Control Module via two low-pass filters. This modulation signal modulates
     the active VCO to produce a modulated low-level rf carrier signal.

     Low-frequency modulation signals (below the loop filter corner) tend to be
     interpreted by the PLL as VCO frequency error. A modulation compensation
     signal is added to the PLL _control voltage_ to cancel out this effect and
     allow for low frequency modulation.

Specific to the Quantar it has an internal 2.1 MHz reference derived from it's
16.4 MHz clock or 5/10 MHz external inputs. There is a separate reference
from the SCM DSP chip for TX and RX.

On the exciter the custom PLL chip has a dedicated REF_AUDIO input of which it
uses to modulate the divided down reference frequency. The normal VCO_AUDIO
is injected post filter through a resistor divider into the mod input on the
VCO (UHF1-4) or into a parallel diode (VHF/UHF0/800/900).

I could be wrong on my PLL theory here, but as the chip is a black box, what I
know is based on logic analyzers and probing. I'm pretty confident it's
modulating the reference frequency. It's the same chip as what's in the Astro
Spectra.

The trick I believe, is in the way the PL/DPL is presented to the station and
if the modulation compensation adjustment is sufficient to track out the PLL's
tendency to cancel the low frequency tones.

While you can get it close for PL or DPL, digital modes require two point
modulation.

--
Joe Leikhim

Leikhim and Associates

Communications Consultants

Oviedo, Florida

JLeikhim@Leikhim.com

407-982-0446

WWW.LEIKHIM.COM

W9CR · May 10, 2017, 5:10am

The quantar generates a 2.1 MHz clock from the master oscillator input. A
separate clock is sent to the exciter and receiver modules. It's designed so
you can daisy chain every quantar off a master 10 mhz source.

The PLL chip used in the exciter has a special reference modulation input
where the low frequency input is taken. How this works internally is anyone's
guess as it's a custom chip.

···

On 5/9/17 2:29 AM, Joe Leikhim wrote:

Does the Quantar give you an option of running the receiver on its own
reference oscillator? Reason I ask is that Motorola Simulcast don't
dither the site reference oscillator of the TX to my knowledge. A multi
channel simulcast system might have 20 trunked stations each with
different low speed data streams at any moment.

--
Bryan Fields

727-409-1194 - Voice
http://bryanfields.net

tsawyer · May 12, 2017, 3:12am

The one it comes with.

···

On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 11:24 PM, Joe Leikhim rhyolite@leikhim.com wrote:

I wonder what kind of enclosure he had it in?

On 5/8/2017 11:10 PM, Tim Sawyer wrote:

    The PCGM were noisy. I know of a case where a ham
using one was shut down by the site owner. Seems the PCGM was
emitting a interfering signal on high band, around 158 Mhz.

_______________________________________________
App_rpt-users mailing list
App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlink.org
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To unsubscribe from this list please visit [http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users](http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users) and scroll down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email address and press the "Unsubscribe or edit options button"
You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you can do it via email confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing, please send a message to the list detailing the problem.



-- Joe Leikhim
Leikhim and Associates
Communications Consultants
Oviedo, Florida
JLeikhim@Leikhim.com

407-982-0446

[WWW.LEIKHIM.COM](http://WWW.LEIKHIM.COM)

App_rpt-users mailing list

App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlink.org

http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users

To unsubscribe from this list please visit http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users and scroll down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email address and press the “Unsubscribe or edit options button”

You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you can do it via email confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing, please send a message to the list detailing the problem.

–

      On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Bryan

Fields bryan@bryanfields.net
wrote:

            I've been following this with some interest.  One of
the fundamental issues with the PCGM was the master
clock going to the radio was unable to be modulated.
This made low frequency signals (PL) distort, and
digital PL was even worse.

            Typically
most radios use two point modulation, with modulation on
the reference oscillator. When you add an external
reference you loose this.

            Some
base stations are designed to do two point modulation
even on an external clock, the Quantar for example.
This station will even phase lock it’s PL and DPL
generation if provided a 1 PPS in addition to a clock.

            If we
could inject modulation into the clock generator
simulcast performance would vastly improve. I’d be
interested to see your design to see if this would be a
possibility.

Thoughts?

–

Bryan Fields

M: +1-727-409-1194

            On May 8, 2017, at 14:15, Reid Brandon <rfpowerguy@yahoo.com                >

wrote:

Hi

Joe,

                  I
got a page with a pic of a man that rotated
around saying DOWNLOAD NOT FOUND.

Try

again!?

Tks

Reid

                            On Sunday, May 7, 2017 12:25 PM, Pierre

Martel <petem001@gmail.com >
wrote:

                                I am very interrested

in all this project. My email is
VE2PF @ VE2MRC dot com!

                                  what radio did you used for the

project?

Thanks for sharing!

Pierre

VE2PF

                                    2017-05-07 12:32
GMT-04:00 Kevin Custer kuggie@kuggie.com:
                                        I wanted to throw this email
out to the group for all
those who want to simulcast
with the RTCM. For those who
don’t know, in order to make
the RTCM suitable for
simulcast you must have a
more accurate 9.6 MHz clock
for the RTCM in order to
ensure the audio sounds
acceptable in the overlap
areas. I did this a few
months ago using 9.6 MHz
OCXO’s. This worked
reasonably well. Not as well
as I would have liked but
the system was very usable,
but of course I wanted it to
be better. Since the PCGM
(Programmable Clock
Generation Module) is no
longer available, I decided
to roll my own as some say.
                                        I created a PLL circuit that
can accept a 10 MHz, 1 MHz
or 100 KHz reference input
and produce a phase locked
9.6 MHz out for the RTCM. I
have been testing this over
the past few days and it has
made an great improvement in
the audio quality in the
overlap. The quality of the
audio in the overlap areas
sounds very, very good, it’s
very similar to what I
expect to hear in commercial
simulcast systems. My
circuit is heavily based off
of an old Motorola MSF5000
HSO PLL circuit that I was
able to adapt and modify to
my needs. There are other
uses for this circuit that
make it attractive for
simulcasting but I wont get
into them here. I am will to
share my schematic and bill
of materials (digikey) with
anyone. Please send me an
email and I will be willing
to share all of my
information on the project.
Joe,
                                      Why not consider do it as an
article for Repeater Builder?
                                      Thanks,

                                      Kevin





                                        On 5/7/2017 3:13 AM, Joe
Moskalski wrote:
                                          App_rpt-users mailing list

                                                                                          App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlin
k.org
                                          [http://lists.allstarlink.org/c
gi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rp t-users](http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users)
                                        To unsubscribe from this
list please visit http://lists.allstarlink.org/c
gi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rp t-users and scroll down to the bottom
of the page. Enter your
email address and press the
“Unsubscribe or edit options
button”
                                          You do not need a password
to unsubscribe, you can do
it via email confirmation.
If you have trouble
unsubscribing, please send
a message to the list
detailing the problem.

                            App_rpt-users mailing list

                            App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlink.org

                            [http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users](http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users)



                            To unsubscribe from this list please
visit http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rp t-users
and scroll down to the bottom of the
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the “Unsubscribe or edit options button”
                            You do not need a password to
unsubscribe, you can do it via email
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                  and scroll down to the bottom of the page. Enter

your email address and press the “Unsubscribe or
edit options button”

                                      You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you

can do it via email confirmation. If you have
trouble unsubscribing, please send a message to
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        _______________________________________________

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address and press the “Unsubscribe or edit options button”

        You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you can do it via

email confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing,
please send a message to the list detailing the problem.

–

Tim

–

Tim

Pierre_Martel · May 12, 2017, 3:37am

I know there is always the one that ask the obvious question but, what is a pcgm?

···

On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Bryan Fields bryan@bryanfields.net wrote:

I’ve been following this with some interest. One of the fundamental issues with the PCGM was the master clock going to the radio was unable to be modulated. This made low frequency signals (PL) distort, and digital PL was even worse.

Typically most radios use two point modulation, with modulation on the reference oscillator. When you add an external reference you loose this.

Some base stations are designed to do two point modulation even on an external clock, the Quantar for example. This station will even phase lock it’s PL and DPL generation if provided a 1 PPS in addition to a clock.

If we could inject modulation into the clock generator simulcast performance would vastly improve. I’d be interested to see your design to see if this would be a possibility.

Thoughts?

–

Bryan Fields

M: +1-727-409-1194

On May 8, 2017, at 14:15, Reid Brandon rfpowerguy@yahoo.com wrote:

Hi Joe,

I got a page with a pic of a man that rotated around saying DOWNLOAD NOT FOUND.

Try again!?

Tks Reid

On Sunday, May 7, 2017 12:25 PM, Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com wrote:

I am very interrested in all this project. My email is VE2PF @ VE2MRC dot com!

what radio did you used for the project?

Thanks for sharing!

Pierre

VE2PF

2017-05-07 12:32 GMT-04:00 Kevin Custer kuggie@kuggie.com:

I wanted to throw this email out to the group for all those who want to simulcast with the RTCM. For those who don’t know, in order to make the RTCM suitable for simulcast you must have a more accurate 9.6 MHz clock for the RTCM in order to ensure the audio sounds acceptable in the overlap areas. I did this a few months ago using 9.6 MHz OCXO’s. This worked reasonably well. Not as well as I would have liked but the system was very usable, but of course I wanted it to be better. Since the PCGM (Programmable Clock Generation Module) is no longer available, I decided to roll my own as some say.

I created a PLL circuit that can accept a 10 MHz, 1 MHz or 100 KHz reference input and produce a phase locked 9.6 MHz out for the RTCM. I have been testing this over the past few days and it has made an great improvement in the audio quality in the overlap. The quality of the audio in the overlap areas sounds very, very good, it’s very similar to what I expect to hear in commercial simulcast systems. My circuit is heavily based off of an old Motorola MSF5000 HSO PLL circuit that I was able to adapt and modify to my needs. There are other uses for this circuit that make it attractive for simulcasting but I wont get into them here. I am will to share my schematic and bill of materials (digikey) with anyone. Please send me an email and I will be willing to share all of my information on the project.
Joe,

Why not consider do it as an article for Repeater Builder?

Thanks,

Kevin

On 5/7/2017 3:13 AM, Joe Moskalski wrote:

App_rpt-users mailing list

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–

Tim

tsawyer · May 12, 2017, 4:03pm

Political Correctness Gone Mad.

Actually it’s Programmable Clock Generator Module.

K

···

On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Bryan Fields bryan@bryanfields.net wrote:

I’ve been following this with some interest. One of the fundamental issues with the PCGM was the master clock going to the radio was unable to be modulated. This made low frequency signals (PL) distort, and digital PL was even worse.

Typically most radios use two point modulation, with modulation on the reference oscillator. When you add an external reference you loose this.

Some base stations are designed to do two point modulation even on an external clock, the Quantar for example. This station will even phase lock it’s PL and DPL generation if provided a 1 PPS in addition to a clock.

If we could inject modulation into the clock generator simulcast performance would vastly improve. I’d be interested to see your design to see if this would be a possibility.

Thoughts?

–

Bryan Fields

M: +1-727-409-1194

On May 8, 2017, at 14:15, Reid Brandon rfpowerguy@yahoo.com wrote:

Hi Joe,

I got a page with a pic of a man that rotated around saying DOWNLOAD NOT FOUND.

Try again!?

Tks Reid

On Sunday, May 7, 2017 12:25 PM, Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com wrote:

I am very interrested in all this project. My email is VE2PF @ VE2MRC dot com!

what radio did you used for the project?

Thanks for sharing!

Pierre

VE2PF

2017-05-07 12:32 GMT-04:00 Kevin Custer kuggie@kuggie.com:

I wanted to throw this email out to the group for all those who want to simulcast with the RTCM. For those who don’t know, in order to make the RTCM suitable for simulcast you must have a more accurate 9.6 MHz clock for the RTCM in order to ensure the audio sounds acceptable in the overlap areas. I did this a few months ago using 9.6 MHz OCXO’s. This worked reasonably well. Not as well as I would have liked but the system was very usable, but of course I wanted it to be better. Since the PCGM (Programmable Clock Generation Module) is no longer available, I decided to roll my own as some say.

I created a PLL circuit that can accept a 10 MHz, 1 MHz or 100 KHz reference input and produce a phase locked 9.6 MHz out for the RTCM. I have been testing this over the past few days and it has made an great improvement in the audio quality in the overlap. The quality of the audio in the overlap areas sounds very, very good, it’s very similar to what I expect to hear in commercial simulcast systems. My circuit is heavily based off of an old Motorola MSF5000 HSO PLL circuit that I was able to adapt and modify to my needs. There are other uses for this circuit that make it attractive for simulcasting but I wont get into them here. I am will to share my schematic and bill of materials (digikey) with anyone. Please send me an email and I will be willing to share all of my information on the project.
Joe,

Why not consider do it as an article for Repeater Builder?

Thanks,

Kevin

On 5/7/2017 3:13 AM, Joe Moskalski wrote:

App_rpt-users mailing list

App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlin k.org

http://lists.allstarlink.org/c gi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rp t-users

To unsubscribe from this list please visit http://lists.allstarlink.org/c gi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rp t-users and scroll down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email address and press the “Unsubscribe or edit options button”

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–

Tim

K4SAT · May 12, 2017, 7:08pm

I have searched for documentation on the PCGM. can you point me
to the enclosure?

···

On 5/11/2017 11:12 PM, Tim Sawyer
wrote:

The one it comes with.

      On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 11:24 PM, Joe
Leikhim rhyolite@leikhim.com
wrote:

I wonder what kind of enclosure he had it in?

            On
5/8/2017 11:10 PM, Tim Sawyer wrote:

              The PCGM were noisy. I know of a case
where a ham using one was shut down by the site owner.
Seems the PCGM was emitting a interfering signal on
high band, around 158 Mhz.

                On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 1:33
PM, Bryan Fields bryan@bryanfields.net
wrote:
                      I've been following this with some
interest. One of the fundamental issues with
the PCGM was the master clock going to the
radio was unable to be modulated. This made
low frequency signals (PL) distort, and
digital PL was even worse.

                      Typically
most radios use two point modulation, with
modulation on the reference oscillator. When
you add an external reference you loose this.

                      Some
base stations are designed to do two point
modulation even on an external clock, the
Quantar for example. This station will even
phase lock it’s PL and DPL generation if
provided a 1 PPS in addition to a clock.

                      If
we could inject modulation into the clock
generator simulcast performance would vastly
improve. I’d be interested to see your design
to see if this would be a possibility.

Thoughts?

–

Bryan Fields

M: +1-727-409-1194

                      On May 8, 2017, at 14:15, Reid Brandon <rfpowerguy@yahoo.com                          >

wrote:

Hi

Joe,

                            I
got a page with a pic of a man that
rotated around saying DOWNLOAD NOT
FOUND.

Try

again!?

Tks

Reid

On Sunday, May 7,
2017 12:25 PM, Pierre Martel
<petem001@gmail.com >
wrote:

                                          I am very
interrested in all this
project. My email is VE2PF
@ VE2MRC dot com!

                                            what radio did you

used for the project?

Thanks for sharing!

Pierre

VE2PF

                                              2017-05-07
12:32 GMT-04:00 Kevin
Custer kuggie@kuggie.com:
                                                  I wanted to throw
this email out to
the group for all
those who want to
simulcast with the
RTCM. For those
who don’t know, in
order to make the
RTCM suitable for
simulcast you must
have a more
accurate 9.6 MHz
clock for the RTCM
in order to ensure
the audio sounds
acceptable in the
overlap areas. I
did this a few
months ago using
9.6 MHz OCXO’s.
This worked
reasonably well.
Not as well as I
would have liked
but the system was
very usable, but
of course I wanted
it to be better.
Since the PCGM
(Programmable
Clock Generation
Module) is no
longer available,
I decided to roll
my own as some
say.
                                                  I created a PLL
circuit that can
accept a 10 MHz, 1
MHz or 100 KHz
reference input
and produce a
phase locked 9.6
MHz out for the
RTCM. I have been
testing this over
the past few days
and it has made an
great improvement
in the audio
quality in the
overlap. The
quality of the
audio in the
overlap areas
sounds very, very
good, it’s very
similar to what I
expect to hear in
commercial
simulcast systems.
My circuit is
heavily based off
of an old Motorola
MSF5000 HSO PLL
circuit that I was
able to adapt and
modify to my
needs. There are
other uses for
this circuit that
make it attractive
for simulcasting
but I wont get
into them here. I
am will to share
my schematic and
bill of materials
(digikey) with
anyone. Please
send me an email
and I will be
willing to share
all of my
information on the
project.
Joe,
                                                Why not consider do
it as an article for
Repeater Builder?
                                                Thanks,

                                                Kevin





                                                  On 5/7/2017 3:13
AM, Joe Moskalski
wrote:
                                                    App_rpt-users
mailing list
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                  _______________________________________________

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JLeikhim@Leikhim.com

407-982-0446

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-- Joe Leikhim
Leikhim and Associates
Communications Consultants
Oviedo, Florida
407-982-0446

App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlink.org http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users JLeikhim@Leikhim.com WWW.LEIKHIM.COM

tsawyer · May 12, 2017, 7:53pm

The PCGM used to be manufactured by micro-node.com which came with an enclosure similar to the RTCM http://micro-node.com/_img/rtcm1-750.jpg but smaller.

Mark at micro-node.com said he was thinking of building another batch (25 or so) of PCGMs as he is seeing some demand.

···

On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 12:08 PM, Joe Leikhim rhyolite@leikhim.com wrote:

  I have searched for documentation on the PCGM. can you point me

to the enclosure?

  On 5/11/2017 11:12 PM, Tim Sawyer

wrote:

The one it comes with.

_______________________________________________
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App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlink.org
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You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you can do it via email confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing, please send a message to the list detailing the problem.



-- Joe Leikhim
Leikhim and Associates
Communications Consultants
Oviedo, Florida
JLeikhim@Leikhim.com

407-982-0446

[WWW.LEIKHIM.COM](http://WWW.LEIKHIM.COM)

App_rpt-users mailing list

App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlink.org

http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users

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–

      On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 11:24 PM, Joe

Leikhim rhyolite@leikhim.com
wrote:

I wonder what kind of enclosure he had it in?

            On
5/8/2017 11:10 PM, Tim Sawyer wrote:

              The PCGM were noisy. I know of a case
where a ham using one was shut down by the site owner.
Seems the PCGM was emitting a interfering signal on
high band, around 158 Mhz.

_______________________________________________
App_rpt-users mailing list
App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlink.org
[http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users](http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users)

To unsubscribe from this list please visit [http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users](http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users) and scroll down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email address and press the "Unsubscribe or edit options button"
You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you can do it via email confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing, please send a message to the list detailing the problem.



-- Joe Leikhim
Leikhim and Associates
Communications Consultants
Oviedo, Florida
JLeikhim@Leikhim.com

407-982-0446

[WWW.LEIKHIM.COM](http://WWW.LEIKHIM.COM)

App_rpt-users mailing list
App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlink.org

http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users

To unsubscribe from this list please visit http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users and scroll down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email address and press the “Unsubscribe or edit options button”
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–

Tim

                On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 1:33

PM, Bryan Fields bryan@bryanfields.net
wrote:

                      I've been following this with some
interest. One of the fundamental issues with
the PCGM was the master clock going to the
radio was unable to be modulated. This made
low frequency signals (PL) distort, and
digital PL was even worse.

                      Typically
most radios use two point modulation, with
modulation on the reference oscillator. When
you add an external reference you loose this.

                      Some
base stations are designed to do two point
modulation even on an external clock, the
Quantar for example. This station will even
phase lock it’s PL and DPL generation if
provided a 1 PPS in addition to a clock.

                      If
we could inject modulation into the clock
generator simulcast performance would vastly
improve. I’d be interested to see your design
to see if this would be a possibility.

Thoughts?

–

Bryan Fields

M: +1-727-409-1194

                      On May 8, 2017, at 14:15, Reid Brandon <rfpowerguy@yahoo.com                          >

wrote:

Hi

Joe,

                            I
got a page with a pic of a man that
rotated around saying DOWNLOAD NOT
FOUND.

Try

again!?

Tks

Reid

On Sunday, May 7,
2017 12:25 PM, Pierre Martel
<petem001@gmail.com >
wrote:

                                          I am very
interrested in all this
project. My email is VE2PF
@ VE2MRC dot com!

                                            what radio did you

used for the project?

Thanks for sharing!

Pierre

VE2PF

                                              2017-05-07
12:32 GMT-04:00 Kevin
Custer kuggie@kuggie.com:
                                                  I wanted to throw
this email out to
the group for all
those who want to
simulcast with the
RTCM. For those
who don’t know, in
order to make the
RTCM suitable for
simulcast you must
have a more
accurate 9.6 MHz
clock for the RTCM
in order to ensure
the audio sounds
acceptable in the
overlap areas. I
did this a few
months ago using
9.6 MHz OCXO’s.
This worked
reasonably well.
Not as well as I
would have liked
but the system was
very usable, but
of course I wanted
it to be better.
Since the PCGM
(Programmable
Clock Generation
Module) is no
longer available,
I decided to roll
my own as some
say.
                                                  I created a PLL
circuit that can
accept a 10 MHz, 1
MHz or 100 KHz
reference input
and produce a
phase locked 9.6
MHz out for the
RTCM. I have been
testing this over
the past few days
and it has made an
great improvement
in the audio
quality in the
overlap. The
quality of the
audio in the
overlap areas
sounds very, very
good, it’s very
similar to what I
expect to hear in
commercial
simulcast systems.
My circuit is
heavily based off
of an old Motorola
MSF5000 HSO PLL
circuit that I was
able to adapt and
modify to my
needs. There are
other uses for
this circuit that
make it attractive
for simulcasting
but I wont get
into them here. I
am will to share
my schematic and
bill of materials
(digikey) with
anyone. Please
send me an email
and I will be
willing to share
all of my
information on the
project.
Joe,
                                                Why not consider do
it as an article for
Repeater Builder?
                                                Thanks,

                                                Kevin





                                                  On 5/7/2017 3:13
AM, Joe Moskalski
wrote:
                                                    App_rpt-users
mailing list
                                                    App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlin k.org

                                                    [http://lists.allstarlink.org/c
gi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rp t-users](http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users)
                                                   To
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visit http://lists.allstarlink.org/c
gi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rp t-users and scroll down to the bottom
of the page. Enter
your email address
and press the
“Unsubscribe or
edit options
button”
                                                    You do not need
a password to
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can do it via
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confirmation. If
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unsubscribing,
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the problem.

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                                      To unsubscribe from this list
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Tim

–

Tim

W9CR · May 12, 2017, 8:02pm

He built a few for a friend of mine and I will have them at Dayton. Hit me up directly and I’ll see if we have a few to spare.

···

On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 12:08 PM, Joe Leikhim rhyolite@leikhim.com wrote:

  I have searched for documentation on the PCGM. can you point me

to the enclosure?

  On 5/11/2017 11:12 PM, Tim Sawyer

wrote:

The one it comes with.

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-- Joe Leikhim
Leikhim and Associates
Communications Consultants
Oviedo, Florida
JLeikhim@Leikhim.com

407-982-0446

[WWW.LEIKHIM.COM](http://WWW.LEIKHIM.COM)

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      On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 11:24 PM, Joe

Leikhim rhyolite@leikhim.com
wrote:

I wonder what kind of enclosure he had it in?

            On
5/8/2017 11:10 PM, Tim Sawyer wrote:

              The PCGM were noisy. I know of a case
where a ham using one was shut down by the site owner.
Seems the PCGM was emitting a interfering signal on
high band, around 158 Mhz.

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-- Joe Leikhim
Leikhim and Associates
Communications Consultants
Oviedo, Florida
JLeikhim@Leikhim.com

407-982-0446

[WWW.LEIKHIM.COM](http://WWW.LEIKHIM.COM)

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–

Tim

                On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 1:33

PM, Bryan Fields bryan@bryanfields.net
wrote:

                      I've been following this with some
interest. One of the fundamental issues with
the PCGM was the master clock going to the
radio was unable to be modulated. This made
low frequency signals (PL) distort, and
digital PL was even worse.

                      Typically
most radios use two point modulation, with
modulation on the reference oscillator. When
you add an external reference you loose this.

                      Some
base stations are designed to do two point
modulation even on an external clock, the
Quantar for example. This station will even
phase lock it’s PL and DPL generation if
provided a 1 PPS in addition to a clock.

                      If
we could inject modulation into the clock
generator simulcast performance would vastly
improve. I’d be interested to see your design
to see if this would be a possibility.

Thoughts?

–

Bryan Fields

M: +1-727-409-1194

                      On May 8, 2017, at 14:15, Reid Brandon <rfpowerguy@yahoo.com                          >

wrote:

Hi

Joe,

                            I
got a page with a pic of a man that
rotated around saying DOWNLOAD NOT
FOUND.

Try

again!?

Tks

Reid

On Sunday, May 7,
2017 12:25 PM, Pierre Martel
<petem001@gmail.com >
wrote:

                                          I am very
interrested in all this
project. My email is VE2PF
@ VE2MRC dot com!

                                            what radio did you

used for the project?

Thanks for sharing!

Pierre

VE2PF

                                              2017-05-07
12:32 GMT-04:00 Kevin
Custer kuggie@kuggie.com:
                                                  I wanted to throw
this email out to
the group for all
those who want to
simulcast with the
RTCM. For those
who don’t know, in
order to make the
RTCM suitable for
simulcast you must
have a more
accurate 9.6 MHz
clock for the RTCM
in order to ensure
the audio sounds
acceptable in the
overlap areas. I
did this a few
months ago using
9.6 MHz OCXO’s.
This worked
reasonably well.
Not as well as I
would have liked
but the system was
very usable, but
of course I wanted
it to be better.
Since the PCGM
(Programmable
Clock Generation
Module) is no
longer available,
I decided to roll
my own as some
say.
                                                  I created a PLL
circuit that can
accept a 10 MHz, 1
MHz or 100 KHz
reference input
and produce a
phase locked 9.6
MHz out for the
RTCM. I have been
testing this over
the past few days
and it has made an
great improvement
in the audio
quality in the
overlap. The
quality of the
audio in the
overlap areas
sounds very, very
good, it’s very
similar to what I
expect to hear in
commercial
simulcast systems.
My circuit is
heavily based off
of an old Motorola
MSF5000 HSO PLL
circuit that I was
able to adapt and
modify to my
needs. There are
other uses for
this circuit that
make it attractive
for simulcasting
but I wont get
into them here. I
am will to share
my schematic and
bill of materials
(digikey) with
anyone. Please
send me an email
and I will be
willing to share
all of my
information on the
project.
Joe,
                                                Why not consider do
it as an article for
Repeater Builder?
                                                Thanks,

                                                Kevin





                                                  On 5/7/2017 3:13
AM, Joe Moskalski
wrote:
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–

Tim

–

Tim

Pierre_Martel · May 12, 2017, 9:39pm

A big thanks Tim. I feel less uneducated Will have to get a look at this…

···

2017-05-12 12:03 GMT-04:00 Tim Sawyer tisawyer@gmail.com:

Political Correctness Gone Mad.

Actually it’s Programmable Clock Generator Module.

K

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 8:38 PM Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com wrote:

I know there is always the one that ask the obvious question but, what is a pcgm?

Le lun. 8 mai 2017 à 23:10, Tim Sawyer tisawyer@gmail.com a écrit :

The PCGM were noisy. I know of a case where a ham using one was shut down by the site owner. Seems the PCGM was emitting a interfering signal on high band, around 158 Mhz.

App_rpt-users mailing list

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http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users

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–

Tim

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On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Bryan Fields bryan@bryanfields.net wrote:

I’ve been following this with some interest. One of the fundamental issues with the PCGM was the master clock going to the radio was unable to be modulated. This made low frequency signals (PL) distort, and digital PL was even worse.

Typically most radios use two point modulation, with modulation on the reference oscillator. When you add an external reference you loose this.

Some base stations are designed to do two point modulation even on an external clock, the Quantar for example. This station will even phase lock it’s PL and DPL generation if provided a 1 PPS in addition to a clock.

If we could inject modulation into the clock generator simulcast performance would vastly improve. I’d be interested to see your design to see if this would be a possibility.

Thoughts?

–

Bryan Fields

M: +1-727-409-1194

On May 8, 2017, at 14:15, Reid Brandon rfpowerguy@yahoo.com wrote:

Hi Joe,

I got a page with a pic of a man that rotated around saying DOWNLOAD NOT FOUND.

Try again!?

Tks Reid

On Sunday, May 7, 2017 12:25 PM, Pierre Martel petem001@gmail.com wrote:

I am very interrested in all this project. My email is VE2PF @ VE2MRC dot com!

what radio did you used for the project?

Thanks for sharing!

Pierre

VE2PF

2017-05-07 12:32 GMT-04:00 Kevin Custer kuggie@kuggie.com:

I wanted to throw this email out to the group for all those who want to simulcast with the RTCM. For those who don’t know, in order to make the RTCM suitable for simulcast you must have a more accurate 9.6 MHz clock for the RTCM in order to ensure the audio sounds acceptable in the overlap areas. I did this a few months ago using 9.6 MHz OCXO’s. This worked reasonably well. Not as well as I would have liked but the system was very usable, but of course I wanted it to be better. Since the PCGM (Programmable Clock Generation Module) is no longer available, I decided to roll my own as some say.

I created a PLL circuit that can accept a 10 MHz, 1 MHz or 100 KHz reference input and produce a phase locked 9.6 MHz out for the RTCM. I have been testing this over the past few days and it has made an great improvement in the audio quality in the overlap. The quality of the audio in the overlap areas sounds very, very good, it’s very similar to what I expect to hear in commercial simulcast systems. My circuit is heavily based off of an old Motorola MSF5000 HSO PLL circuit that I was able to adapt and modify to my needs. There are other uses for this circuit that make it attractive for simulcasting but I wont get into them here. I am will to share my schematic and bill of materials (digikey) with anyone. Please send me an email and I will be willing to share all of my information on the project.
Joe,

Why not consider do it as an article for Repeater Builder?

Thanks,

Kevin

On 5/7/2017 3:13 AM, Joe Moskalski wrote:

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–

Tim