It’s the user’s responsibility to keep their repeaters operating within the bounds of the FCC rules and regs. Don’t take this personally, but I dislike when someone makes a reasonable technical request, and people debate the legality before the technical merit. It happens with MARS/CAP mods, amplifiers above legal limits, and a bunch of other things. Should the SCom guys not allow their controllers to operate above 20wpm?
Anyway, I agree with the changes, and I’d really love to see the telemetry time dropped to 15 seconds.
I agree that it is the users (actually trustee, node operator, or app-rpt implimenter) responsibility to assure that their node, repeater, etc is in compliance with legal requirements. I disagree that asl should provide software that in its DEFAULT Unmodified state is not compliant. Not everyone using app-rpt and asterisk is in a position to modify source code and recompile, thus packaged binaries are made available. I submit that the DEFAULT canonical source and binaries be legally compliant and even a bit conservative in settings such that those who tend toward the appliance operator end of our group and will just download a precompiled sd card image trusting that putting it on the air won’t put them in violation of the rules can actually do just that. If someone wants to recompile from modified source let them do so but the standard should be compliant as a matter of good software stewardship. I oppose the suggested change. If he wants his node to be non compliant let him recompile, it’s his prerogative but as a user of the default binaries I ought be able to trust that said software won’t fill my mailbox with notices of violation from my local regulatory authorities.
I’m well aware that the part 97 limit is 20WPM. The app_rpt default can be set as it is currently; just unthrottle the rpt.conf programmable upper limit a bit. Some would like to move closer to 25 WPM.
Regards,
Tom / K5TRA
If the users only want to download binaries or a image and the
default setting in rpt.conf is 20 WPM or below, an appliance
operator would have no reason to set the CW speed above 20 WPM. If a
US user or a international user wants to set the speed over 20 WPM
they should be able to. Unless we know for sure that everywhere ASL
is used the max CW ID speed is 20 WPM.
IMHO
Steve N4IRS
···
On 1/23/20 9:59 PM, Eric via
AllStarLink Discussion Groups wrote:
users (actually trustee, node operator, or app-rpt
implimenter) responsibility to assure that their node,
repeater, etc is in compliance with legal requirements. I
disagree that asl should provide software that in its
DEFAULT Unmodified state is not compliant. Not everyone
using app-rpt and asterisk is in a position to modify
source code and recompile, thus packaged binaries are made
available. I submit that the DEFAULT canonical source and
binaries be legally compliant and even a bit conservative
in settings such that those who tend toward the appliance
operator end of our group and will just download a
precompiled sd card image trusting that putting it on the
air won’t put them in violation of the rules can actually
do just that. If someone wants to recompile from modified
source let them do so but the standard should be compliant
as a matter of good software stewardship. I oppose the
suggested change. If he wants his node to be non compliant
let him recompile, it’s his prerogative but as a user of
the default binaries I ought be able to trust that said
software won’t fill my mailbox with notices of violation
from my local regulatory authorities.
to keep their repeaters operating within the bounds of the
FCC rules and regs. Don’t take this personally, but I
dislike when someone makes a reasonable technical request,
and people debate the legality before the technical merit.
It happens with MARS/CAP mods, amplifi…
I feel that we (ASL) would be irresponsible to set the default max CW speed above 20 WPM. It just wouldn’t be proper stewardship of our hobby or of AllStar. I don’t want ASL to have any part in someone violating Part 97.
Tim,
On a large linked network (like we have for 900 MHz nodes), there’s a lot of background telemetry that we don’t want to hear. Usually, any command issued that produces telemetry we want to hear will start telemetry that will complete in less than 15 Sec. My experience has been good with a short telemetry on demand (COP,35) setting. The longer telemetry is allowed to be heard, the more likely undesired background telemetry will be heard. Two minutes is a bit long.
Tom
Hey Tom, glad to see I’m not the only one to modify morsespeed. I also wondered how long it would take for someone to bring up the legal thing…I wasn’t disappointed. I run mine at 30WPM. The legal ID is generated by the Quantars, at 20 wpm…no PL. This has become more difficult since Duuuude passed. The source code available has some deficiencies…
Dont want to stir the pot too much about legal limit in ASL for the USA, cause legal for the USA does not mean legal for the rest of the world.
If a setting is locked to the max for the USA it could prevent a foreign user of setting his repeater to his liking.
maybe having the settings in a timing.conf or what ever and have the default for the USA and maybe “other country” in comment so we could just un comment the stuff for our country and comment the default one.
I feel that we (ASL) would be irresponsible to set the default max CW speed above 20 WPM. It just wouldn’t be proper stewardship of our hobby or of AllStar. I don’t want ASL to have any part in someone violating Part 97.
I don’t want to hear anyone’s telemetry response other than my own. So I find telemdefault=2 ideal. But I do now understand that you want and why. Thank you for the explanation.
I would not want to change the default to 15 seconds. That would not be good for people that are used to the 2 minute hang time.
I’d be ok with a setting to optionally limit or lengthen TELEM_HANG TIME. I’d gladly code that for you if I had the skill.
I figured someone would bring up that argument. You make a good case for non USA users. There is in fact a nod to other countries on this WiKi page and in rpt.conf.
;beaconing=0 ; Send ID regardless of repeater activity (Required in the UK, but probably illegal in the US)
I guess we could have similar wording in the comments about ID speed provided there actually is a country that allows repeater IDs to be more than 20 WPM.
Can you (or anyone) make the case that more than 20 WPM repeater CW ID speed is allowed outside the USA?
The problem is that someone who has access to the source code can
possibly violate part 97. Are you proposing to remove the source
from public view so no one can push the speed past 20 WPM?
···
On 1/24/20 9:46 AM, Tim Sawyer via
AllStarLink Discussion Groups wrote:
would be irresponsible to set the default max CW speed
above 20 WPM. It just wouldn’t be proper stewardship of
our hobby or of AllStar. I don’t want ASL to have any part
in someone violating Part 97.
Consider what I stated…my repeaters legally ID at 20WPM (Quantars) which won’t be heard by users because the ID is send without PL. But for users I have the app_rpt.c modified to allow 30 WPM and anyone using tyhe repeater hears that one. But I’m legally covered by the Motorola ID. And its my license, why should anyone else want to impose their ways on me?
I don’t think anyone wants to “impose their ways” on anyone. It’s open source free software after all and so long as you Share your changes (should you distribute a modified version) you can do as you damn well please with it. Instead what I see being argued for here and the opposition to the change being that the default should be 20wpm or less. You are free to set whatever speeds and limits you like but the default Unmodified source and binaries should be conservative in their settings. Should the max speed be limited to 20wpm, no most likely not… but set a conservative default and allow the speed to be set in a config file somewhere or an argument passed either via command line or agi.
There may also be a bigger problem in architecture here to be addressed with this change simply attempting to address a symptom and not the root problem. It has been mentioned that telemetry from one node ends up being heard on multiple other nodes and thus the reason for the suggested change would be to reduce the interruption and chatter brought about by telemetry. I’ve become somewhat familiar with a rather large network of rf linked repeaters that all use the controller from Sierra radio systems (srs). With the way that controller is architected various ports can be linked together and mix their audio. The telemetry generated by that controller can be selectively sent out any one or more ports depending upon the chosen personality of any given port. Thus telemetry can be set to only go out the local port or only down the link. With asterisk we ought be able to take that a step further and only send the telemetry where it’s needed. For instance if someone on rf at node 1234 needs to command node 5678 and both nodes are connected to node 2468 we ought be able to send a function complete from 5678 to 1234 and have the telemetry only be heard on node 1234. Possibly more difficult to impliment, yes, but also a better fix as it addresses the root problem.
You will love this In Canada the identification rules are pretty simple. it all start will rules 41 of the communication laws:
Identification
41 The holder of a radio licence shall identify the radio station in respect of which the licence was issued in accordance with the Technical Requirements Respecting Identification of Radio Stations, issued by the Minister, as amended from time to time.
And the Technical Requirements Respecting Identification of Radio Stations consist of :
Scope
This document sets out the technical requirements for the identification of licensed radio stations. Operators must comply with these provision in accordance with section 41 of the Radiocommunication Regulations.
Identification
The operator of each radio station communicating with other radio stations shall transmit the assigned call sign at least once in each transmission and at least once every 30 minutes of transmission. If no call sign has been assigned, the name of the licensee of the radio station will be used.
But!
Just to be clear, CIR-15 specify optimum spec 1 khz tone at 1 khz deviation and 20 wpm. but those are not binding. it could be a different tone, deviation or cw speed.
What they want is for a system to id every 30 minute and that it. it could be 50wpm they dont care…
As you can see our regulation are really not as strict as the US regulation are.
I figured someone would bring up that argument. You make a good case for non USA users. There is in fact a nod to other countries on this WiKi page and in rpt.conf.
;beaconing=0 ; Send ID regardless of repeater activity (Required in the UK, but probably illegal in the US)
I guess we could have similar wording in the comments about ID speed provided there actually is a country that allows repeater IDs to be more than 20 WPM.
Can you (or anyone) make the case that more than 20 WPM repeater CW ID speed is allowed outside the USA?
Dont want to stir the pot too much about legal limit in ASL for the USA, cause legal for the USA does not mean legal for the rest of the world. If a setting is locked to the max for the USA it could prevent a foreign user of setting his repeater to his liking. maybe having the settings in a timing…
I’m left wondering why the tomorse program won’t accomplish what you’re
wanting?? tomorse CLEANLY generates high quality CW as a .wav file, which
can then be played whenever you need it. No app_rpt mods needed.
Am I the only one here who HEARS the really sloppy CW generated by
the app_rpt routines at higher speeds (like 25 or 30 WPM)?
73, David KB4FXC
···
On Sat, 25 Jan 2020, Tom via AllStarLink Discussion Groups wrote:
Yep George. I can tell you that we aren’t the only ones; but I won’t mention any names. I think we don’t have many Libertarians here.
Tom
In Canada the identification rules are pretty simple. it all start will rules 41 of the communication laws: