App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 85, Issue 56

Km4nrj · March 30, 2016, 8:53pm

Maybe I am way off here and there are plans to use voting for digital down the road like Digitac Motorola does. They go further and actually reconstruct packets that fail from a site using data from all sites.

Having said that, in the analog world using Moto SpectraTac comparators for many years it wasn’t that noticeable because all was analog from every field receiver in a 1247 square mile County.

With the ADC to DAC process, I shudder at thinking of a timed referencing synchronization of various source sites using public Internet transport. I mean even in the “fire and forget” world of UDP protocol, the network cannot cope.

Unless you are talking private links using microwave unlicensed spectrum technology, I think it may be a hair puller.

Interesting project though.

···

On Mar 30, 2016 12:30, app_rpt-users-request@ohnosec.org wrote:

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Today’s Topics:

Re: Non-RTCM voter, where? (Jeff Ackerman)

Re: Non-RTCM voter, where? (Bryan Fields)

Message: 1

Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 09:28:32 -0700

From: Jeff Ackerman kg6uyz@gmail.com

To: Joe Leikhim rhyolite@leikhim.com

Cc: info@meshnetworks.co.nz, app_rpt mailing list
    <app_rpt-users@ohnosec.org>
Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] Non-RTCM voter, where?

Message-ID:
    <CAKmcLtJRAnL_-rPHYQHs6cq-eyXY3FmxC-FkNU9rbWUU9+NkYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=“utf-8”

XIPAR does not do GPS timing of the audio so there will be no timing of

audio. Its called “simple voter”, no frills. XIPAR simply selects the

best receiver based on DSP signal strength measurements.

On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 9:01 AM, Joe Leikhim rhyolite@leikhim.com wrote:

Without GPS, how does XIPAR deal with jitter and network latency?

On 3/30/2016 11:25 AM, Jeff Ackerman wrote:

If you looking for the alternative IP voting of the varuious app_rpt

flavors you can try XIPAR: <http://www.xelatec.com/xipar/simplevoter>

http://www.xelatec.com/xipar/simplevoter

It wont be as seamless of voting as a RTCM, but its much simpler, doesnt

require anything more then PC’s, the IP backhaul and usb radio interfaces

with radios capable of giving discriminator audio.

Conventional hardware voting comparators could work but require the

backhaul, which in most commercial applications is 4 wire e&m voice

circuits using either tone signaling or e&m signaling. (This method of

voting is done outside of allstar/app_rpt.)

On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Joe Leikhim rhyolite@leikhim.com wrote:

Here are some products to start with;

There is the Raven M4x

http://www.ravencomm.com/documents/products_doc3_23.pdf

Raytheon JPS SNV-12 (Though the future of this product is up in the air,

it was the defacto standard. Uses 600 ohm VF circuits, IP connectivity

needs to be overlaid)

http://www.simulcastsolutions.com/userfiles/file/appnotes/vSnv12App.pdf

Motorola Spectra Tac (Obsolete Now Motorola has pretty much abandoned

analog FM technology. Uses 600 ohm VF circuits,)

http://www.repeater-builder.com/motorola/spectra-tac/spectratac-index.html

The above voters all use some method of signal/noise voting. The JPS

SNV-12 and the Raven M4X use DSP to make decision, while the Spectra Tac

was pretty much an analog noise measurement vs a status tone/audio AGC

level. The SpectraTac does not support non-Motorola receivers unless you

know the “secret sauce” which I am privy to.

This site has some practical examples of projects that are simulcast, but

by design incorporate the SNV-12 voters.

www.simulcastsolutions.com

Are you looking for some more in depth RF design aspects of receiver

voting? I can help perhaps.

Joe

www.leikhim.com

On 3/8/2016 5:20 AM, Steve Wright wrote:

On 05/03/16 06:00, mike@midnighteng.com wrote:

FYI There are RTCM /voter systems for app_rpt if you want to do it

right.

Is there an example voting-RX project somewhere I can read about?

Non-RTCM please. I know about the RTCM and I’m looking at alternatives.

Many thanks,

Steve

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You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you can do it via email

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–

Joe Leikhim

Leikhim and Associates

Communications Consultants

Oviedo, Florida

JLeikhim@Leikhim.com

407-982-0446

WWW.LEIKHIM.COM

App_rpt-users mailing list

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–

Jeff Ackerman

kg6uyz@gmail.com

–

Joe Leikhim

Leikhim and Associates

Communications Consultants

Oviedo, Florida

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407-982-0446

WWW.LEIKHIM.COM

–

Jeff Ackerman

kg6uyz@gmail.com

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Message: 2

Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 12:30:16 -0400

From: Bryan Fields bryan@bryanfields.net

To: App_rpt-users@ohnosec.org

Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] Non-RTCM voter, where?

Message-ID: 749F182A-496E-4894-83A8-5A782C32862B@bryanfields.net

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=“utf-8”

I don’t believe it does.

Does anyone have a link to the xipar source repository? I’d like to take a look how they are doing it. It might be possible to do it via 1588 or some other network time protocol.

On March 30, 2016 12:01:38 PM EDT, Joe Leikhim rhyolite@leikhim.com wrote:

Without GPS, how does XIPAR deal with jitter and network latency?

On 3/30/2016 11:25 AM, Jeff Ackerman wrote:

If you looking for the alternative IP voting of the varuious app_rpt

flavors you can try XIPAR: http://www.xelatec.com/xipar/simplevoter

It wont be as seamless of voting as a RTCM, but its much simpler,

doesnt require anything more then PC’s, the IP backhaul and usb radio

interfaces with radios capable of giving discriminator audio.

Conventional hardware voting comparators could work but require the

backhaul, which in most commercial applications is 4 wire e&m voice

circuits using either tone signaling or e&m signaling. (This method

of

voting is done outside of allstar/app_rpt.)

On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Joe Leikhim <rhyolite@leikhim.com > > >> mailto:rhyolite@leikhim.com> wrote:
Here are some products to start with;
There is the Raven M4x
[http://www.ravencomm.com/documents/products_doc3_23.pdf](http://www.ravencomm.com/documents/products_doc3_23.pdf)
Raytheon JPS SNV-12 (Though the future of this product is up in
the air, it was the defacto standard. Uses 600 ohm VF circuits,
IP
connectivity needs to be overlaid)
http://www.simulcastsolutions.com/userfiles/file/appnotes/vSnv12App.pdf
Motorola Spectra Tac (Obsolete Now Motorola has pretty much
abandoned analog FM technology. Uses 600 ohm VF circuits,)
http://www.repeater-builder.com/motorola/spectra-tac/spectratac-index.html
The above voters all use some method of signal/noise voting. The
JPS SNV-12 and the Raven M4X use DSP to make decision, while the
Spectra Tac was pretty much an analog noise measurement vs a
status tone/audio AGC level. The SpectraTac does not support
non-Motorola receivers unless you know the "secret sauce" which I
am privy to.
This site has some practical examples of projects that are
simulcast, but by design incorporate the SNV-12 voters.
[www.simulcastsolutions.com](http://www.simulcastsolutions.com) <[http://www.simulcastsolutions.com](http://www.simulcastsolutions.com)>
Are you looking for some more in depth RF design aspects of
receiver voting? I can help perhaps.
Joe
[www.leikhim.com](http://www.leikhim.com) <[http://www.leikhim.com](http://www.leikhim.com)>
On 3/8/2016 5:20 AM, Steve Wright wrote:
    On 05/03/16 06:00, mike@midnighteng.com >  > >>         <mailto:mike@midnighteng.com> wrote:
        FYI There are RTCM /voter systems for app_rpt if you want
        to do it right.
    Is there an example voting-RX project somewhere I can read
about?
    Non-RTCM please.  I know about the RTCM and I'm looking at
    alternatives.
    Many thanks,
    Steve
    _______________________________________________
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    You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you can do it via
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--
Joe Leikhim
Leikhim and Associates
Communications Consultants
Oviedo, Florida
JLeikhim@Leikhim.com
407-982-0446 <tel:407-982-0446>
[WWW.LEIKHIM.COM](http://WWW.LEIKHIM.COM) <[http://WWW.LEIKHIM.COM](http://WWW.LEIKHIM.COM)>
_______________________________________________
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App_rpt-users@ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users@ohnosec.org>
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and press the "Unsubscribe or edit options button"
You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you can do it via
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confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing, please send a
message to the list detailing the problem.
–

Jeff Ackerman

kg6uyz@gmail.com mailto:kg6uyz@gmail.com

–

Joe Leikhim

Leikhim and Associates

Communications Consultants

Oviedo, Florida

JLeikhim@Leikhim.com

407-982-0446

WWW.LEIKHIM.COM

App_rpt-users mailing list

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to the list detailing the problem.

–

Bryan Fields

727-409-1194

http://bryanfields.net

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K4SAT · March 30, 2016, 10:46pm

The Digitac Voter reconstructs received data in the Securenet
digital voice mode only. On mixed mode systems, the analog audio is
processed in same way the SpectraTac� worked, it is an analog VF
channel. The Astro-Tac processes same way but is for ASTRO or P25
digital modes.

In the analog world, if you want to go over the IP and you know the

exact time at each site and at the voter (via GPS), the voter can
buffer several hundred of milliseconds and wait for all the
straggling audio “bits” to arrive. In theory, if later than the
buffer depth,� those late sites might be ignored.

···

On 3/30/2016 4:53 PM, KM4NRJ FLORIDA
wrote:

    Maybe I am way off here and there are plans to use
voting for digital down the road like Digitac Motorola does.
They go further and actually reconstruct packets that fail from
a site using data from all sites.

    Having said that, in the analog world using Moto
SpectraTac comparators for many years it wasn’t that noticeable
because all was analog from every field receiver in a 1247
square mile County.

    With the ADC to DAC process, I shudder at thinking of
a timed referencing synchronization of various source sites
using public Internet transport.� I mean even in the “fire and
forget” world of UDP protocol, the network cannot cope.

    Unless you are talking private links using microwave
unlicensed spectrum technology, I think it may be a hair puller.

Interesting project though.

On Mar 30, 2016 12:30, < >
wrote:




_______________________________________________
App_rpt-users mailing list
To unsubscribe from this list please visit and scroll down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email address and press the "Unsubscribe or edit options button"
You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you can do it via email confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing, please send a message to the list detailing the problem.


-- Joe Leikhim
Leikhim and Associates
Communications Consultants
Oviedo, Florida
407-982-0446

app_rpt-users-request@ohnosec.org

      Send
App_rpt-users mailing list submissions to
      � � � � app_rpt-users@ohnosec.org



      To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit

      � � � � [http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users](http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users)

      or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to

      � � � � app_rpt-users-request@ohnosec.org



      You can reach the person managing the list at

      � � � � app_rpt-users-owner@ohnosec.org



      When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
specific
      than "Re: Contents of App_rpt-users digest..."





      Today's Topics:



      � �1. Re: Non-RTCM voter, where? (Jeff Ackerman)

      � �2. Re: Non-RTCM voter, where? (Bryan Fields)
      Message: 1

      Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 09:28:32 -0700

      From: Jeff Ackerman <kg6uyz@gmail.com>

      To: Joe Leikhim <rhyolite@leikhim.com>

      Cc: info@meshnetworks.co.nz          ,
app_rpt mailing list
      � � � � <app_rpt-users@ohnosec.org>

      Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] Non-RTCM voter, where?

      Message-ID:

      � � � � <CAKmcLtJRAnL_-rPHYQHs6cq-eyXY3FmxC-FkNU9rbWUU9+NkYQ@mail.gmail.com>

      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"



      XIPAR does not do GPS timing of the audio so there will be no
timing of
      audio.� Its called "simple voter", no frills.� XIPAR simply
selects the
      best receiver based on DSP signal strength measurements.



      On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 9:01 AM, Joe Leikhim <          >
wrote:

Without GPS, how does XIPAR deal with jitter and network
latency?

On 3/30/2016 11:25 AM, Jeff Ackerman wrote:

If you looking for the alternative IP voting of the
varuious app_rpt
flavors you can try XIPAR:� <>

It wont be as seamless of voting as a RTCM, but its much
simpler, doesnt
require anything more then PC’s, the IP backhaul and usb
radio interfaces
with radios capable of giving discriminator audio.

Conventional hardware voting comparators could work but
require the
backhaul, which in most commercial applications is 4 wire
e&m voice
circuits using either tone signaling or e&m
signaling. (This method of
voting is done outside of allstar/app_rpt.)

On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Joe Leikhim <>
wrote:

Here are some products to start with;

There is the Raven M4x

Raytheon JPS SNV-12 (Though the future of this
product is up in the air,
it was the defacto standard. Uses 600 ohm VF
circuits, IP connectivity
needs to be overlaid)

Motorola Spectra Tac (Obsolete Now Motorola has
pretty much abandoned
analog FM technology. Uses 600 ohm VF circuits,)

The above voters all use some method of signal/noise
voting. The JPS
SNV-12 and the Raven M4X use DSP to make decision,
while the Spectra Tac
was pretty much an analog noise measurement vs a
status tone/audio AGC
level. The SpectraTac does not support non-Motorola
receivers unless you
know the “secret sauce” which I am privy to.

This site has some practical examples of projects
that are simulcast, but
by design incorporate the SNV-12 voters.

Are you looking for some more in depth RF design
aspects of receiver
voting? I can help perhaps.

Joe

On 3/8/2016 5:20 AM, Steve Wright wrote:

On 05/03/16 06:00,� wrote:

FYI There are RTCM /voter systems for app_rpt
if you want to do it
right.

Is there an example voting-RX project somewhere I
can read about?

Non-RTCM please.� I know about the RTCM and I’m
looking at alternatives.

Many thanks,
Steve

App_rpt-users mailing list

To unsubscribe from this list please visit
<>
and scroll
down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email
address and press the
“Unsubscribe or edit options button”
You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you
can do it via email
confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing,
please send a message to
the list detailing the problem.

–
Joe Leikhim

Leikhim and Associates

Communications Consultants

Oviedo, Florida

App_rpt-users mailing list

To unsubscribe from this list please visit
<>
and scroll
down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email
address and press the
“Unsubscribe or edit options button”
You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you can do
it via email
confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing,
please send a message to
the list detailing the problem.

–
Jeff Ackerman

–
Joe Leikhim

Leikhim and Associates

Communications Consultants

Oviedo, Florida

–
Jeff Ackerman
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 12:30:16 -0400
From: Bryan Fields <>
To: Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] Non-RTCM voter, where?
Message-ID: <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=“utf-8”
I don’t believe it does.
Does anyone have a link to the xipar source repository?� �I’d
like to take a look how they are doing it.� It might be
possible to do it via 1588 or some other network time
protocol.
On March 30, 2016 12:01:38 PM EDT, Joe Leikhim <>
wrote:

Without GPS, how does XIPAR deal with jitter and network
latency?

On 3/30/2016 11:25 AM, Jeff Ackerman wrote:

If you looking for the alternative IP voting of the
varuious app_rpt
flavors you can try XIPAR: >>
It wont be as seamless of voting as a RTCM, but its
much simpler,
doesnt require anything more then PC’s, the IP
backhaul and usb radio

interfaces with radios capable of giving
discriminator audio.

Conventional hardware voting comparators could work
but require the
backhaul, which in most commercial applications is 4
wire e&m voice
circuits using either tone signaling or e&m
signaling. (This method
of
voting is done outside of allstar/app_rpt.)

On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Joe Leikhim <
mailto:>
wrote:

� � �Here are some products to start with;

� � �There is the Raven M4x

� � �

� � �Raytheon JPS SNV-12 (Though the future of this
product is up in
� � �the air, it was the defacto standard. Uses 600
ohm VF circuits,
IP
� � �connectivity needs to be overlaid)

� � �Motorola Spectra Tac (Obsolete Now Motorola has
pretty much
� � �abandoned analog FM technology. Uses 600 ohm VF
circuits,)

� � �The above voters all use some method of
signal/noise voting. The
� � �JPS SNV-12 and the Raven M4X use DSP to make
decision, while the
� � �Spectra Tac was pretty much an analog noise
measurement vs a
� � �status tone/audio AGC level. The SpectraTac does
not support
� � �non-Motorola receivers unless you know the
“secret sauce” which I
� � �am privy to.

� � �This site has some practical examples of projects
that are
� � �simulcast, but by design incorporate the SNV-12
voters.

� � � <>

� � �Are you looking for some more in depth RF design
aspects of
� � �receiver voting? I can help perhaps.

� � �Joe

� � � <>

� � �On 3/8/2016 5:20 AM, Steve Wright wrote:

� � � � �On 05/03/16 06:00, >>� � � � �mailto:
wrote:

� � � � � � �FYI There are RTCM /voter systems for
app_rpt if you want
� � � � � � �to do it right.

� � � � �Is there an example voting-RX project
somewhere I can read
about?

� � � � �Non-RTCM please.� I know about the RTCM and
I’m looking at
� � � � �alternatives.

� � � � �Many thanks,
� � � � �Steve

� � � �
�_______________________________________________
� � � � �App_rpt-users mailing list
� � � � �
mailto:
� � � � �

� � � � �To unsubscribe from this list please visit
� � � � �
and
� � � � �scroll down to the bottom of the page. Enter
your email
� � � � �address and press the “Unsubscribe or edit
options button”
� � � � �You do not need a password to unsubscribe,
you can do it via
� � � � �email confirmation. If you have trouble
unsubscribing, please
� � � � �send a message to the list detailing the
problem.

� � �–
� � �Joe Leikhim

� � �Leikhim and Associates

� � �Communications Consultants

� � �Oviedo, Florida

� � �

� � � tel:

� � � <>

� � �_______________________________________________
� � �App_rpt-users mailing list
� � �
mailto:
� � �

� � �To unsubscribe from this list please visit
� � �
and
� � �scroll down to the bottom of the page. Enter your
email address
� � �and press the “Unsubscribe or edit options
button”
� � �You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you
can do it via
email
� � �confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing,
please send a
� � �message to the list detailing the problem.

–
Jeff Ackerman
mailto:

–
Joe Leikhim

Leikhim and Associates

Communications Consultants

Oviedo, Florida

App_rpt-users mailing list

To unsubscribe from this list please visit

and scroll

down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email address
and press the
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send a message
to the list detailing the problem.
–
Bryan Fields
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