@larry one of the great features of Discourse is you can unfollow a topic. Please feel free to click the bell icon and you won’t be bothered further.
Eric,
I owe you a personal apology for for my uncalled for post the other day.
You were just an unfortunate victim who got sucked in to commenting on
what was soon to become the return of an ongoing RANT about the
ASL/Hamvoip issue. An issue that has been beat to death over and over
and over with no resolution.
My intent, get people to quit using the Allstar discussion group as a
feuding platform.
Sharing and helping should be the Groups goal.
It just happens that after a few previous posts. Nothing in your post,
Nothing directed at you personally but at the fact that ANY reply going
forward would only serve to fish for more and more comments, soon
reviving the OLD ongoing Rant that would add fuel to a feud that appears
more congenial lately.
Hence my uncalled for comment and You becoming it’s unintended victim.
I do apologize for it’s content and the way it was done.
Please do not take my poor judgment as anything personal. It was not!
73
Larry - N7FM
···
On 8/27/20 9:59 PM, Eric via AllStarLink Discussion Groups wrote:
[eric.fort.listmail] eric.fort.listmail
https://community.allstarlink.org/u/eric.fort.listmail
August 28I was simply agreeing. The unfortunate and sad truth is that when 2 or
more parties can not agree as to what the terms of copyright for
intellectual property mean much less agree to the terms of how said
copyrIght shall be put into practice the only way it gets settled is by
judicial ruling/decree. Until one or the other parties decides to settle
the dispute via a judicial process the one on violation wins. Just the
way it is. Until then it’s all talk and posturing. This really ought be
obvious to anyone withe red blood, respiration, and a heartbeat.Eric
Sent using SMTP.
··· (click for more details)
https://community.allstarlink.org/t/so-it-has-come-to-this/17484/22Visit Topic
https://community.allstarlink.org/t/so-it-has-come-to-this/17484/22 or
reply to this email to respond.
In Reply To[larry] larry https://community.allstarlink.org/u/larry
August 28Eric, LET IT DIE! This list was almost back to being civil. Why don’t
you take the worms and go fish some place else. Larry - N7FM ··· (click
for more details)
https://community.allstarlink.org/t/so-it-has-come-to-this/17484/21Previous Replies[larry] larry https://community.allstarlink.org/u/larry
August 28Eric,
LET IT DIE!
This list was almost back to being civil. Why don’t you take the worms
and go fish some place else.Larry - N7FM
··· (click for more details)
https://community.allstarlink.org/t/so-it-has-come-to-this/17484/21
[kc1kcc] kc1kcc https://community.allstarlink.org/u/kc1kcc
August 28Or maybe he has a change of heart. With everything that’s going wrong in
the world right now, I feel like we should be mending relationships
wherever we can.[eric.fort.listmail] eric.fort.listmail
https://community.allstarlink.org/u/eric.fort.listmail
August 28Yes it is a missed opportunity, but all he has to do is take the new,
revised, and better open source code written by others and include it in
his closed version And he gets the best of both by means of what is
essentially theft. Until someone with real $$$& to make something of it
legally in the courts to enforce the gpl he wins. It may be time to
settle this once and for all and defend the gpl which it’s licensed
under but who is going to put up the $$$$ to make the challenge.Af6ep
Sent using SMTP.
··· (click for more details)
https://community.allstarlink.org/t/so-it-has-come-to-this/17484/19
[Pierre_Martel] Pierre_Martel
https://community.allstarlink.org/u/pierre_martel
August 28That is why I will always ask for source from them. If we play as a team
we all win. If we play divided we all lose.··· (click for more details)
https://community.allstarlink.org/t/so-it-has-come-to-this/17484/18
[kc1kcc] kc1kcc https://community.allstarlink.org/u/kc1kcc
August 28I think this is a missed opportunity for HamVoIP. David seems to have
put a lot of effort into the product, but it could be so much better if
others could contribute. At this point, I’m not sure what is to be
gained by withholding the source code. Eventually other distributions
will match HamVoIP’s feature set and even surpass it. HamVoIP will be
ineligible to integrate those GPL protected contributions without
opening its source or re-basing. We’d all get to a better place a whole
lot sooner if we worked together.
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1 Like
It is a shame that our HOBBY has become so political and causes more fights
than creativity. Not just this form of technology but with many others we have developed.
This discussing/argument has been beat to the pulp and should be solved offline away from the group,
which I joined to keep up, support, and learn more about THE TECHNOLOGY itself and not anything else
that passes through it.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE fix it because its getting to a point where it’s totally destroying all that has
been achieved and rip our HOBBY apart.
There has already been a HUGE loss of interest as you should already know, so let’s not push it over the edge and out of existence.
And that’s all I have to say about that……
Harold - K7ILO
···
From: Larry via AllStarLink Discussion Groups noreply@community.allstarlink.org
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 12:26 PM
To: k7ilo1@gmail.com
Subject: [AllStarLink Discussion Groups] [App_rpt-users] So it Has Come to This?
|
larry
August 29
|
- | - |
Eric,
I owe you a personal apology for for my uncalled for post the other day.
You were just an unfortunate victim who got sucked in to commenting on
what was soon to become the return of an ongoing RANT about the
ASL/Hamvoip issue. An issue that has been beat to death over and over
and over with no resolution.
My intent, get people to quit using the Allstar discussion group as a
feuding platform.
Sharing and helping should be the Groups goal.
It just happens that after a few previous posts. Nothing in your post,
Nothing directed at you personally but at the fact that ANY reply going
forward would only serve to fish for more and more comments, soon
reviving the OLD ongoing Rant that would add fuel to a feud that appears
more congenial lately.
Hence my uncalled for comment and You becoming it’s unintended victim.
I do apologize for it’s content and the way it was done.
Please do not take my poor judgment as anything personal. It was not!
73
Larry - N7FM
Visit Topic or reply to this email to respond.
In Reply To
|
eric.fort.listmail
August 28
|
- | - |
I was simply agreeing. The unfortunate and sad truth is that when 2 or more parties can not agree as to what the terms of copyright for intellectual property mean much less agree to the terms of how said copyrIght shall be put into practice the only way it gets settled is by judicial ruling/decree. …
Visit Topic or reply to this email to respond.
You are receiving this because you enabled mailing list mode.
To unsubscribe from these emails, click here.
It is a shame. The only resolution is OPEN SOURCE HamVOIP to remove the fork.
···
From: Harold via AllStarLink Discussion Groups noreply@community.allstarlink.org
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 3:28 PM
To: tom@k5tra.net
Subject: [AllStarLink Discussion Groups] [App_rpt-users] So it Has Come to This?
|
k7ilo
August 29
|
- | - |
It is a shame that our HOBBY has become so political and causes more fights
than creativity. Not just this form of technology but with many others we have developed.
This discussing/argument has been beat to the pulp and should be solved offline away from the group,
which I joined to keep up, support, and learn more about THE TECHNOLOGY itself and not anything else
that passes through it.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE fix it because its getting to a point where it’s totally destroying all that has
been achieved and rip our HOBBY apart.
There has already been a HUGE loss of interest as you should already know, so let’s not push it over the edge and out of existence.
And that’s all I have to say about that……
Harold - K7ILO
Visit Topic or reply to this email to respond.
In Reply To
|
larry
August 29
|
- | - |
Eric, I owe you a personal apology for for my uncalled for post the other day. You were just an unfortunate victim who got sucked in to commenting on what was soon to become the return of an ongoing RANT about the ASL/Hamvoip issue. An issue that has been beat to death over and over and over wi…
Visit Topic or reply to this email to respond.
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And no one at ASL can do that.
Larry,
Nothing personal taken… you are forgiven. I would really like to see the parties settle there differences here. It is unfortunate that the 2 sides here can not agree especially over the work of a now deceased gentleman who I personally knew and worked with on allstar who due to his mortal status can not stand to defend or arbitrate such a dispute (Bdfl status only lasts fl… then the squabbles begin). If this is going to continue we ought see if we could get an org such as eff to arbitrate, but I have yet even seen any willingness of the parties involved to even discuss the matter civilly as opposed to the mud slinging that goes on. That would be a good first step. I have my feelings as to how this ought be based upon what I know of it. That is reasonably moot though. I like most would like to see it settled but it likely will not be until someone puts some money where there mouth is. That said both hams and talk are cheap for the most part.
Eric
I generally agree, but this is not an uncommon problem. Other successful open source projects have been forked and the fork closed, only to be forced to open it after a number of circumstances aligned. It will only be with proper community knowledge, involvement and ultimately support that the matter can be resolved. I can promise you that those who donate their time to further develop the core ASL project do not take kindly to their efforts being stolen, and now being used for profit, which really is what was needed to happen to get EFF involved!
Good point. However, I started this topic and that should count as willingness by the parties involved. I’ll continue to make the community aware of new concerns as they come up. I know we’ve been over this again and again and some folks don’t want to hear it. Maybe community pressure will convince HamVoIP to change their ways and we can end this discussion.
The other point about mud slinging if well taken too. This is about the policy not the person. We know personal attacks don’t solve the problem.
1 Like
The issue is that BOTH parties need to be willing to discuss the matter CIVILLY and to the credit of the ASL folks, they have been willing. I don’t see the hamvoip side being as willing to come to the table and discuss the matter. The assertion is that we have a GPL based code base and that hamvoip has violated the terms of the gpl. There is also the issue of who rightly holds said copyright on said codebase. I therefore call upon both sides to calmly and rationally present the case as to why their actions are the proper path moving forward. Let’s start by clearly defining the points of disagreement. Please keep it to just the facts of the matter as each party understands them to be. It is ok if both the parties disagree as to the facts of the matter (such as the code in question being gpl or public domain and who the rightful owner of any copyright may be) but let’s pay this out on the table for once without any personal attacks. If we can at least agree to getting this defined along with the facts of the matter as viewed from all parties that would be a positive first step.
Eric Fort
Sent using SMTP.
···
On Aug 31, 2020, at 6:53 AM, Tim Sawyer via AllStarLink Discussion Groups noreply@community.allstarlink.org wrote:
| wd6awp ASL Admin
August 31 |
- | - |
eric.fort.listmail:
… but I have yet even seen any willingness of the parties involved to even discuss the matter civilly as opposed to the mud slinging that goes on. That would be a good first step.
Good point. However, I started this topic and that should count as willingness by the parties involved. I’ll continue to make the community aware of new concerns as they come up. I know we’ve been over this again and again and some folks don’t want to hear it. Maybe community pressure will convince HamVoIP to change their ways and we can end this discussion.
The other point about mud slinging if well taken too. This is about the policy not the person. We know personal attacks don’t solve the problem.
Visit Topic or reply to this email to respond.
In Reply To
| eric.fort.listmail
August 30 |
- | - |
Larry, Nothing personal taken… you are forgiven. I would really like to see the parties settle there differences here. It is unfortunate that the 2 sides here can not agree especially over the work of a now deceased gentleman who I personally knew and worked with on allstar who due to his mortal s…
Previous Replies
| JJC
August 30 |
- | - |
I generally agree, but this is not an uncommon problem. Other successful open source projects have been forked and the fork closed, only to be forced to open it after a number of circumstances aligned. It will only be with proper community knowledge, involvement and ultimately support that the matter can be resolved. I can promise you that those who donate their time to further develop the core ASL project do not take kindly to their efforts being stolen, and now being used for profit, which really is what was needed to happen to get EFF involved!
August 30 |
- | - |
Larry,
Nothing personal taken… you are forgiven. I would really like to see the parties settle there differences here. It is unfortunate that the 2 sides here can not agree especially over the work of a now deceased gentleman who I personally knew and worked with on allstar who due to his mortal status can not stand to defend or arbitrate such a dispute (Bdfl status only lasts fl… then the squabbles begin). If this is going to continue we ought see if we could get an org such as eff to arbitrate, but I have yet even seen any willingness of the parties involved to even discuss the matter civilly as opposed to the mud slinging that goes on. That would be a good first step. I have my feelings as to how this ought be based upon what I know of it. That is reasonably moot though. I like most would like to see it settled but it likely will not be until someone puts some money where there mouth is. That said both hams and talk are cheap for the most part.
Eric
| Pierre_Martel
August 29 |
- | - |
And no one at ASL can do that.
| Tom
August 29 |
- | - |
It is a shame. The only resolution is OPEN SOURCE HamVOIP to remove the fork.
| k7ilo
August 29 |
- | - |
It is a shame that our HOBBY has become so political and causes more fights
than creativity. Not just this form of technology but with many others we have developed.
This discussing/argument has been beat to the pulp and should be solved offline away from the group,
which I joined to keep up, support, and learn more about THE TECHNOLOGY itself and not anything else
that passes through it.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE fix it because its getting to a point where it’s totally destroying all that has
been achieved and rip our HOBBY apart.
There has already been a HUGE loss of interest as you should already know, so let’s not push it over the edge and out of existence.
And that’s all I have to say about that……
Harold - K7ILO
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I guess you missed the part that states all the equipment he’s providing and including for the price he charges…
Sounds like there may be a little jealously going on here.
I’m founder and owner of the USA GMRS Association, we charge a membership fee, just like many other associations and even Amateur radio clubs do, and in that membership fee it includes the use of our local, state-wide and nation-wide repeater systems. We also offer for sale Pi’s with our “LinkConnect” asterisk software version loaded and ready to go should one desire to obtain such.
Must people be reminded that running a massive amount of registration servers, a data center, and the fiber required (bandwidth) for such an operation is not cheap and comes at a high cost? Just because Allstar doesn’t charge a fee doesn’t mean that everyone else shouldn’t recoup something for their time and the backbone operations provided.
Let me be clear, asterisk software is NOT only for Amateur radio operators and saying that, as users of the asterisk software, we don’t sell the software, we only sell the equipment that the software is installed on and also the time to maintain the equipment and the software. I don’t see anywhere in his “(arm-allstar) Pi Farm” where he states the selling of the hamvoip software. Too many times people like to jump to a conclusion that’s not warranted and I think in this case this may very well be the case. If he is selling it, well he wouldn’t be the first and most likely won’t be the last. There’s no law that says you can’t sell it or charge a fee for its use and maintenance as long as one follows the open source licensing rules/requirements for the particular software in question.
Just so there’s no misunderstanding, although not a Amateur radio operator myself, I do have many in the family that are, in addition the fact that I have well over 30 years in the RF field and well over 10 years experience with asterisk software I do and have done many allstar installs for several Amateur radio operators in the past. Many I might add that would not be on allstar today had I not installed the software and made their equipment work like it should. Take that and my facts/opinions for what ever it’s worth.
Have a good day…
You’re not wrong, and if you resell services or even different builds of asterisk that contain modified code, which is perfectly fine to do, then you must provide the source on request or publish it as per the licensing. That’s really the matter here…
If people want to pay for an allstar service that someone offers, that’s fine… if that service includes things from an open source project then the source code must be either published or provided upon request. Neither of those have ever been satisfied and that is the core of the issue plain and simple.
1 Like
No, you are completely wrong! GPL2 does not require you to provide any source code for hosted services, when the end user is leasing/renting software, servers and data center space. There is no transfer of ownership of anything—software or hardware.
73, David KB4FXC
The ONLY instance that GPL2 allows you to use modified GPL2 code and NOT publish the source is if you use the code internally only. When you make available either by a hosted service or simply publishing compiled versions of modified GPL2 code, then the language in the GPL2 is quite clear in that you must publish, or make available upon request, the sourcecode to the modified GPL2 code. I think that this point is even covered in the FAQ on the GNU site surrounding each version of the GPL.
1 Like
You need to go back and do some more research. I suggest you google: gpl SaaS
…And, remember, we’re talking about the GPL2 here! Not GPL3 nor AGPL, etc., etc., etc.
I think that what is missing here is a simple fact of one thing… WHO THE HECK CARES… what Hamvoip or any other outfit(s) are doing. The concern here should be what is happening with Allstar. How and where it’s going, what its future plans are and how it can benefit the current or future users of the software.
This bickering back and forth about what some other outfit is doing only servers to drive people away from the main attention that should be of importance, that of Allstar.
Let hamvoip or others do their thing, move on, stop worrying about them, stop giving them the attention you’re giving them, and only concentrate on Allstar — for it sure needs some serious concentration applied if it intends to stay in the market place it holds for the Amateur world.
Basically, listening to and reading this crap gets old. It’s like a bunch of little spoiled brats sitting around in the play room complaining about the toys the other kids have.
That’s my two cents worth, may even get me booted (which won’t be the first time I’ve been booted from a group) but come on, let’s be adults, stop complaining and crying and move on to making Allstar a heck of a lot easier for your users to setup and use and coming up with more options that it has to offer than it does now.
William R Howell
While I agree… the developers that contribute code to the Allstar project care - they don’t like their code being stolen and no contributions back after putting a lot of time into it, the admin teams that help support Allstar as a whole care, the OSS community cares and frankly so should the amateur radio community. This behavior goes against what amateur radio and open source software are all about in terms of helping better and further the community and effort as a whole.
The SaaS isn’t even really an argument… the binaries have been released to the community, it’s that simple, and that does align with GPL2 and it’s requirements to provide source to users.
I won’t continue to belabor the point - it is my hope that action be taken legally to right the situation. Or even ore so just the right thing be done.
1 Like
And, hence, these incessant arguments and lack of understanding are why the GPL is rapidly dying. When making some kind of a comparison to amateur radio, the BSD 2-clause license would be most closely applicable, NOT GPL! LOL.
I agree with William-t2 and others who believe the Issue has been beat
to oblivion and only sours this list.
My comment to JJC however is about his inclusion of “no contributions”.
In defense of the Hamvoip version. Like it or not.
Without Hamvoip additions being available ASL Version of Allstar would
have stagnated long ago.
Hamvoip existence drives ASL to try to keep up… (RPI4 anyone?) and
good thing in my book. Should Hamvoip supply a PC version, ASL users
would dwindle in numbers like IRLP has.
Both flavors of Allstar being superior function and flexibility wise to
what you can do with IRLP.
Larry - N7FM
···
On 9/3/20 11:28 AM, JJC via AllStarLink Discussion Groups wrote:
[JJC] JJC https://community.allstarlink.org/u/jjc
September 3While I agree… the developers that contribute code to the Allstar
project care - they don’t like their code being stolen and no
contributions back after putting a lot of time into it, the admin teams
that help support Allstar as a whole care, the OSS community cares and
frankly so should the amateur radio community. This behavior goes
against what amateur radio and open source software are all about in
terms of helping better and further the community and effort as a whole.The SaaS isn’t even really an argument… the binaries have been released
to the community, it’s that simple, and that does align with GPL2 and
it’s requirements to provide source to users.I won’t continue to belabor the point - it is my hope that action be
taken legally to right the situation. Or even ore so just the right
thing be done.
Visit Topic
https://community.allstarlink.org/t/so-it-has-come-to-this/17484/38 or
reply to this email to respond.
In Reply To[william-t2] william-t2 https://community.allstarlink.org/u/william-t2
September 3I think that what is missing here is a simple fact of one thing… WHO THE
HECK CARES… what Hamvoip or any other outfit(s) are doing. The concern
here should be what is happening with Allstar. How and where it’s going,
what its future plans are and how it can benefit the current or future
users of the…Previous Replies[william-t2] william-t2 https://community.allstarlink.org/u/william-t2
September 3I think that what is missing here is a simple fact of one thing… WHO THE
HECK CARES… what Hamvoip or any other outfit(s) are doing. The concern
here should be what is happening with Allstar. How and where it’s going,
what its future plans are and how it can benefit the current or future
users of the software.This bickering back and forth about what some other outfit is doing only
servers to drive people away from the main attention that should be of
importance, that of Allstar.Let hamvoip or others do their thing, move on, stop worrying about them,
stop giving them the attention you’re giving them, and only concentrate
on Allstar — for it sure needs some serious concentration applied if it
intends to stay in the market place it holds for the Amateur world.Basically, listening to and reading this crap gets old. It’s like a
bunch of little spoiled brats sitting around in the play room
complaining about the toys the other kids have.That’s my two cents worth, may even get me booted (which won’t be the
first time I’ve been booted from a group) but come on, let’s be adults,
stop complaining and crying and move on to making Allstar a heck of a
lot easier for your users to setup and use and coming up with more
options that it has to offer than it does now.William R Howell
[David_McGough] David_McGough
https://community.allstarlink.org/u/david_mcgough
September 3You need to go back and do some more research. I suggest you google: gpl
SaaS…And, remember, we’re talking about the GPL2 here! Not GPL3 nor AGPL,
etc., etc., etc.[JJC] JJC https://community.allstarlink.org/u/jjc
September 3The ONLY instance that GPL2 allows you to use modified GPL2 code and NOT
publish the source is if you use the code internally only. When you make
available either by a hosted service or simply publishing compiled
versions of modified GPL2 code, then the language in the GPL2 is quite
clear in that you must publish, or make available upon request, the
sourcecode to the modified GPL2 code. I think that this point is even
covered in the FAQ on the GNU site surrounding each version of the GPL.[David_McGough] David_McGough
https://community.allstarlink.org/u/david_mcgough
September 3No, you are completely wrong! GPL2 does not require you to provide any
source code for hosted services, when the end user is leasing/renting
software, servers and data center space. There is no transfer of
ownership of anything—software or hardware.73, David KB4FXC
[JJC] JJC https://community.allstarlink.org/u/jjc
September 3You’re not wrong, and if you resell services or even different builds of
asterisk that contain modified code, which is perfectly fine to do, then
you must provide the source on request or publish it as per the
licensing. That’s really the matter here…If people want to pay for an allstar service that someone offers, that’s
fine… if that service includes things from an open source project then
the source code must be either published or provided upon request.
Neither of those have ever been satisfied and that is the core of the
issue plain and simple.
Visit Topic
https://community.allstarlink.org/t/so-it-has-come-to-this/17484/38 or
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John David, you a huckster, fraud, charlatan and all around cock-sucker. You can’t film-flam your way around the fact you’ve taken code from others, removed the authors names, and passed it as your own. I’ve proven this, and all you can offer in your defense is jazz hands and redirection combined with more bullshit.
You are distributing code for which you have no legal right to distribute. Your code even identifies as GPL, as it’s not using an alternate license to asterisk, and the kernel is not showing as tainted.
Have you considered running for political office? Your shocking immorality certainly makes you a shoe in.
1 Like
LOL, welcome back Bryan!! …I see you still control all Jim Dixon’s IPv4 subnets, that you STOLE from his estate… You planning to ever give them to AllStarLink, Inc. ???
Here are a few, just to jog your memory:
192.77.144.0/24
192.83.199.0/24
192.152.115.0/24
192.206.124.0/24
198.49.251.0/24
198.178.225.0/24
198.183.206.0/24
198.183.207.0/24
198.183.208.0/24
198.183.209.0/24
206.82.140.0/24
206.82.141.0/24
206.82.142.0/24
206.82.143.0/24
206.82.144.0/24
206.82.145.0/24
206.82.146.0/24
206.82.147.0/24
73, David KB4FXC